Atheism as a religion

[amortalman]

The following excerpt is from the National Catholic Register, www.ncregister.com :

But the truth is, atheism is the farthest thing in the world from simple absence of belief. Indeed, atheism is a whole system of beliefs—a system that has its own philosophy (materialism), morality (relativism), politics (social Darwinism), and culture (secularism). It even has its own sacraments (abortion and euthanasia). And this system of beliefs has been responsible for more death, carnage, persecution and misery than any system of beliefs the world has ever known.

Topic of debate: Do you agree or disagree with the statement above and why.

Edit Note: The web address for the National Catholic Register is incomplete. The article I referenced can be read at http://www.ncregister.com/blog/guest-bl ... is-atheism

[2timothy316]

What MW have as their definition does not fit me. I have already discussed this ad nauseum.

Please use the English dictionary to describe yourself.

Why must I consult a dictionary? Why aren't you taking onboard my 'I lack a belief in a God or gods"?

So that you can join the rest of the world in the joys of the English language in the ability to communicate clearly. If you will not, then stop calling yourself an atheist if there is no word to describe yourself, as you're confusing people.

Is your 'lack of belief' something you have accepted as true about yourself?

[wiploc]

[Replying to post 112 by rikuoamero]

You live in a strange world if you think they are not the same.

Please explain how my lack of a belief that you are 6 foot 2, is the same as me believing you are not 6 foot 2.

Seriously, if you can't see it then I don't know how to explain it.

Nobody can see it, because they aren't the same.

The above statement equals the same result. A lack of belief is the same as not believing. Both statements are negative in their assertions. Not believing, disbelief, lack of belief in something are all the same thing.

Let's have three categories:

A: People who believe gods do exist.
B: People who believe gods do not exist.
C: People (everybody else) who don't believe either way.

Groups B and C lack the belief that gods do exist. They don't have that belief.

Groups A and C lack the belief that gods do not exist. They don't have that belief.

Group C lacks both the belief that gods do exist and the belief that gods do not exist. They lack both beliefs.

You seem to be saying that anyone who isn't in group A has to be in group B, and vice versa. But that's just wrong. Many people are in group C.

So let me ask this: Are you objecting to the phrasing, to the description of group C, or do you really think it's impossible for someone to be in that group?

Because it seems that your position is that--regardless of what claim X is--everybody believes either X or not-X, and nobody can ever be undecided on any issue.

If this is a semantic issue, a problem of phrasing, then how would you describe group C, the huge mass of people who are neither theists (people who believe that gods do exist) nor strong atheists (people who believe that gods do not exist?

If your disagreement isn't semantic in nature, then let me ask you this: Do you believe that I have exactly twenty-seven cents in my pocket, or do you believe that I do not have exactly twenty-seven cents in my pocket? Remember, you don't get to be undecided; you have to have one belief or the other.

Someone tells someone, "The Earth's climate is changing due to Global warming". They say to them, "I don't believe it".

"I don't believe it," is ambiguous. It could be meant literally, and it could be a figure of speech called litotes. Litotes is very common, and often misunderstood. We have to judge by context, and in this case you haven't given us enough context to judge by.

Common example of litotes: "He's not the sharpest pencil in the pack." Read literally, that could mean he's the second sharpest. But the intended meaning is probably, "He's extremely dull."

Avoiding ambiguity is the whole reason we say, "I lack belief in gods," rather than, "I don't believe in gods."

Sometimes I say, "I don't happen to have a belief in gods." Anybody who wants to construe that as litotes (in which case the meaning would be, "I do happen to have a belief that there are no gods") is probably trolling, deliberately acting confused for the fun of it. And there's not much we can do for that kind of person.

I tell you I'm 100ft tall, you say to me, "I don't believe you're 100ft tall." or you could say, "I can't believe that your 100ft tall." They are the same statement.

Then how do you describe a person who doesn't believe you are 100 feet tall and who also doesn't believe you aren't 100 feet tall? Or do you insist that everybody has their mind made up on every issue?

No one says, "I have a lack in belief in Global Warming" though it would accepted as the same as "I don't believe in Global Warming".

What if you lack the belief that global warming is happening, and you also lack the belief that it isn't happening? What if you are undecided? What if you are a fence sitter? What if you don't belong in either group?

Do you believe that's impossible, or do you just want us to express it differently?

This is like the English 101 in negative statements.

You actually believe English classes teach that all non-positive statements are to be read as negative?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 118 by 2timothy316]

The above statement equals the same result. A lack of belief is the same as not believing. Both statements are negative in their assertions. Not believing, disbelief, lack of belief in something are all the same thing.

It is not the case of "a lack of belief is the same as not believing". What I said was tell me the difference between lacking a belief that you are (lacking a belief in something positive) versus believing something you are not (having a belief in something negative).

The example I gave was lacking a belief that you are 6 foot 2, versus believing you are not 6 foot 2.
In the first case, I lack a belief that you are this one specific height. I have no idea what height you are. You could be 4 foot 3, 5 foot 4, 6 foot 1, 7 feet tall...
In the second case, I would be believing you are NOT 6 foot 2, probably because I think I know that you are NOT 6 foot 2. I would have to have some knowledge on which to base this on. I would have to know what height you are, so as to know what height you aren't, or at least some idea of the range. e.g. if someone told me you were short, I would then believe you're not 6 foot and above.

Someone tells someone, "The Earth's climate is changing due to Global warming". They say to them, "I don't believe it".

Is that the same as someone potentially saying they lack a belief in climate change?

I tell you I'm 100ft tall, you say to me, "I don't believe you're 100ft tall." or you could say, "I can't believe that your 100ft tall." They are the same statement.

Now THAT would be different than my 6 foot 2 example, because hey...what humans have ever grown anywhere close to 100 feet? I most definitely believe you are NOT 100 feet tall (the second case), even though no-one has ever told me your height. I base this belief on my knowledge of human biology.

No one says, "I have a lack in belief in Global Warming" though it would accepted as the same as "I don't believe in Global Warming".

But if we want to be precise, we would be careful in what we say, wouldn't we? At least I do...

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 114 by 2timothy316]

The definition of atheist is "a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

Have you forgotten the back and forth we had over your use of dictionaries? I'm not going to rehash that.

Ah yes they are taboo for you, you don't follow them and use your own lexicon that changes as you need it to, my bad I forgot. I sure wish I could get a copy of your personal dictionary, but then you'd probably trow that one out too.

No. I said they are not everything. I never said I don't follow them or that they are taboo. I gave a pretty thorough explanation as to what a dictionary is, how and why are they made, and what use they are to language.
If my previous explanations were not enough, I am not going to try again.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 121 by wiploc]

What if you lack the belief that global warming is happening, and you also lack the belief that it isn't happening? What if you are undecided? What if you are a fence sitter? What if you don't belong in either group?

Do you believe that's impossible, or do you just want us to express it differently?

This would be me actually. I am aware that there are plenty of climate scientists who do say there is man made climate change...but then again, there is a lot of money to be made pushing so called green products.
Like the solar road-ways that failed.

[elijahpne]

[Replying to post 1 by amortalman]

Very enlightening post - very useful as far as I am concerned. I certainly can use this.

Thanks very much.