What is the church Christ founded?

[marco]

From Matthew 16 we have:

17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.



Discussion has taken place over what Christ meant here. It seems clear enough he was using a pun on Peter's name, a rock, when he was founding his earthly church on Peter's shoulders.


That would give authority to the RC Church which takes Peter as the first Pope.


However it is argued that Jesus meant that HE was the rock and he was founding his Church on himself, as rock. As the words stand, that seems a spurious interpretation.

So what do the words mean?

[PinSeeker]

I am Lord over all of you

Ahhhhhhh... gotcha. Hoo-boy. Later, tater.

[IaLoaou]

I am Lord over all of you

Ahhhhhhh... gotcha. Hoo-boy. Later, tater.

I told the Lord before you even replied that you would say something stupid.

[PinSeeker]

I am Lord over all of you

Ahhhhhhh... gotcha. Hoo-boy. Later, tater.

I told the Lord before you even replied that you would say something stupid.

Wait... I thought you said you were the Lord.

Okay, well, you think He listened to you?

Or maybe you were praying to yourself...?

[IaLoaou]

I am Lord over all of you

Ahhhhhhh... gotcha. Hoo-boy. Later, tater.

I told the Lord before you even replied that you would say something stupid.

Wait... I thought you said you were the Lord.

Okay, well, you think He listened to you?

Or maybe you were praying to yourself...?

Jesus is the Lord of Lords
there are many Lords in the kingdom of God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

I don't understand why you would say that "the sheep are not Christian."

Also, Jesus charged his followers (all of them) to "go and make disciples of people of all the nations" (Matt.28:29) with his message: "This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt.24:14)

Therefore, the "sheep" that do this are obeying Jesus, and are supporting His anointed brothers (because they are relatively few and can't do all the witnessing work by themselves).

Let me say, too, that the WTS never really changed their view of Matt.25:31-46. They only clarified it, a few years ago. I didn't see any actual change. I sensed a severe criticism from you of the WTS, which is troubling. I believe that criticizing the anointed brothers of Jesus of the Governing Body is tantamount to siding with the ones on Jesus' left who did nothing to help his brothers.

[brianbbs67]

Matthew 10:20
For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

I'm certain, um... IaLoaou... whatever your name is....

IaLoaou

I am Lord over all of you

You could be if you are Ha'Satan.

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 93 by tam]

I don't understand why you would say that "the sheep are not Christian."

The sheep in the sheep and the goats parable are not Christian. They (and the goats) are people of the nations who are alive when Christ (the King) returns.


1 - Christians are among the brothers of Christ; and have already been gathered up to Christ when He returns.

2 - the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable did not know when they had done those things for Christ that He mentioned (clothed Him, fed Him, visited Him in prison or when He was sick, etc). This is why they ask the question of Him, "Lord when did we "do those things" for you?"


So how does it make sense that you (or another jw) could stand before Christ and ask Him, "Lord,when did we help you in the preaching work, or when did we donate time or money to you for building kingdom halls, etc?"

How would that question make any sense at all? Would you not already know?



The WTS teaches that those (the preaching work, donating time and money for kingdom halls, etc, obedience to the GB) are things a person is supposed to do in order to be considered one of the sheep from this parable. Yet not one of these things is what Christ mentioned. He could very easily have mentioned that the sheep helped his brothers bear witness to Him. But He made no such statement. And of course it would make no sense to have that as one of the criteria in light of the parable itself, because who is going to ask, "Lord when did we help bear witness to you...?"

You would already know when you helped do that!

Also, Jesus charged his followers (all of them) to "go and make disciples of people of all the nations" (Matt.28:29) with his message: "This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." (Matt.24:14)

But this has nothing to do with the parable of the sheep and the goats.

Let me say, too, that the WTS never really changed their view of Matt.25:31-46. They only clarified it, a few years ago.

A clarification is something that makes a previous statement more clear; it helps only to explain and clear up confusion over what was previously stated - without making any changes. IF a clarification changes something in a previous teaching, then it is no longer a clarification; it is a change. There are four times that the interpretation was said to be 'refined' in the article I quoted from (I don't want to go through the whole thing in this post, but I will try and open another thread and we can discuss the parable and those changes there, perhaps in the holy huddle room?). Those 'refinements' were changes.

I sensed a severe criticism from you of the WTS, which is troubling. I believe that criticizing the anointed brothers of Jesus of the Governing Body is tantamount to siding with the ones on Jesus' left who did nothing to help his brothers.

So you cannot criticize the governing body of your religion, or you will be judged as one of the goats? Even if those leaders are wrong? Even if they are leading and teaching others wrong?




What would you say if any other religion (such as the RCC) taught that about themselves?



Peace again to you

[JehovahsWitness]

IS PREACHING AND OTHER ASPECTS OF SACRED SERVICE RELATED TO THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS ?

♦ANSWER Yes, it is one* of the aspect upon which the righteous will be judged In Matthew chapters 25-26 Jesus gave a series of illustration connected the end of the world system of things. In one he spoke of his final judgement of all humans, dividing them into two groups SHEEP AND GOATS. The sheep are judged faborably because they help his (Christs) "brothers". Who are the sheep and now do they help?

• * The illustration concentrates on just one aspect, that of the relationship between those with an earthly hope and Christ's anointed brothers. It is neither exhaustive nor a guarantee. Each person will still be judged on their heart condition in relation to their actions.
  

HOW DO THE SHEEP HELP?

Some conclude that Jesus is referring to general humanitarian work performed by atheists and non-believers, but in the illustration he is quite specific, the value of their actions lay in helping a particular group, his "brothers". Further, nowhere in the bible is disbelief and rebellion excused, by works. Note Jesus warning

MATTHEW 7: Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

... and again

MATTHEW 24:39

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

It violates every bible principle to suggest humans can establish their own righteousness, irrespective of what God wants (and even deny his very existence - after all many atheists are humanitarians) and be rewarded for this. People may not be condemned for humanitarianism, but of itself it is no basis for everlasting life. The bible is quite clear

JOHN 17:3

This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

SHEEP Jesus never refers to unbelievers as being his sheep. He consistently refers to them as those who do their best to follow his guidance, who are fed by his "brothers" and who are to be protected from false teachings.

But does not the illustration indicate the "sheep" are ignorant of who the "brothers" are?

• No, it says they are unaware of the high esteem their actions had in his Jesus' eyes, not that they didn't know they were helping his brothers.

But doesn't even that mean the sheep cannot be believers?

• Only if one disregards the point of giving the illustration namely to inform them in advance of this high regard. It wasn't given to encourage ignorance of Christ's ferlings (in order to "qualify" as a sheep) that would be a very perverse and unscriptureal reading) it was given to INFORM what Christ wants us to know about his feelings.

FOOD? CHECK! CLOTHES? CHECK! PREACH? GET LOST!

• Those committed to a literal reading of Jesus illustration miss the whole point of his discourse. While anointed Christians (like anyone living in this system) may fall into need of physical provisions from time to time, Jesus wasn't providing an exhautive "CHECKLIST" . Like the Pharisees of Jesus day modern days nominal Christians take the position, if its not specifically mentioned in the illustration, it cannot apply. So if one of his brothers needed, for example transportation these modern-day "Pharisee-Christians" will say "Nope sorry not one of these things is what Christ mentioned. so I can't help you." Or if one of Christ's brothers needed emotional support dealing with grief these Pharisee-Christians will ask "Where did Jesus mention grief in Matthew 25?" And if a call goes out to help preach the good news of the kingdom these Pharisee-Christians will ignore Matthew 28:19, 20 and whine like the lazy and good for nothing slave with his weak excuses when his master returned, "Where is it in chapter 25!?"
  

  True Christians get the real point of the illustration which is: Help my brothers in any and every way possible and you will be rewarded.

WHAT DO THEY NEED?

• Christ's brothers have one mission in life, that is to hold true to their calling and obey Christ's commands. What work did he COMMAND them to do?
  
  

  
  
  MATTHEW 28/19? 20
  
  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you..

  
  Christ's brothers were to preach and teach in every nation on earth. Jesus gave several illustrations to highlight the import of this commission. In two he likened his brothers to slaves given units of money ("talents") to do business with, in another to farmers sowing seeds in people's hearts, but the point was always the same, he was leaving them with a work to spread the word and do the "business"of making more disciples. Christendom like the evil slaves has either abused their positions in tyrannical conversion by swords or today like the lazy and worthless slave, most bury their talent and do nothing, figuring public preaching is not for them. True Christians roll up their sleeves and get to work.
  

  2 TIMOTHY 4:5
  
  keep your senses in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry

HELP NEEDED

• But how could this be accomplished, especially during this our 20th and 21st centuries when apostate Christendom and it's false teachers were so many and so powerful and TRUE spirit anointed followers so few? How could the good news of the kingdom be proclaimed earthwide when a false message of a manmade kingdom expressed through governments or a kingdom that was no more than a feeling "within you" had engulfed the earth since the dark ages? A few thousand in number in 1914 Christ's brothers couldn't accomplish this work without... HELP. And help came in the form of those "sheep" that were prophecied to manifest during this time of the end*.
  
  * NOTE The time of the end refers to the period between 1914 and the start of the Great Tribulation
  
  The "sheep" join Christs brothers and help proclaim the good news, they support them in every way possible both with their time energy, money, obedient submission and much more. They are by their side when clergy hire children in villages to throw stones at them for preaching, like Silas with Paul they share a cell when authorities arrest them for reaching the good news, they help translate literature to reach millions, provide technical support, support building projects, they provide relief aid in times of disaster... none of which the brothers, small in number as they are could have done alone. The Sheep and the brothers become "one flock" and Christ loves them dearly for the love they show to his own.

That is the POINT of the illustration, not some perverse method of encouraging ignorance of Christ's feelings, not some checklist of what not to do if asked; not some justification for a manmade righteousness that cuts God out of the picture. Not some excuse not to preach in obedience of an explicit command to the contrary. And certainly not to justify acting like the evil slave, and beating on those that are working hard in the Lord's work.

RELATED POSTS

What does it mean to be "born again"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 455#850455

Who go to heaven and why?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 997#846997

[tam]

Peace to you,

IS PREACHING AND OTHER ASPECTS OF SACRED SERVICE RELATED TO THE ILLUSTRATION OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS ?

♦ANSWER Yes, it is one* of the aspect upon which the righteous will be judged In Matthew chapters 25-26 Jesus gave a series of illustration connected the end of the world system of things. In one he spoke of his final judgement of all humans, dividing them into two groups SHEEP AND GOATS. The sheep are judged faborably because they help his (Christs) "brothers".

Indeed, even a least one of His brothers. But as stated in my previous post, and as stated in the parable itself, the sheep do not know that they have done anything for Christ.

This is why they are asking, "Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, when did we see you naked and clothe you..."


The sheep are not aware of having done anything for Christ. That in and of itself rules out the WTS interpretation of this parable. That also rules out 'preaching work'.

It is more the kind of thing being spoken of here:

Continue in brotherly love. Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it. Hebrews 13:2


The sheep here are those who are among the nations who show that the requirements of the law (love) are written upon their heart. (see Romans 2)

Who are the sheep and now do they help?

• * The illustration concentrates on just one aspect, that of the relationship between those with an earthly hope and Christ's anointed brothers. It is neither exhaustive nor a guarantee. Each person will still be judged on their heart condition in relation to their actions.

I thought you said (below) that no one will be declared righteous on the basis of their own actions?

Further, nowhere in the bible is disbelief and rebellion excused, by works. Note Jesus warning

MATTHEW 7: Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

This is not referring to the sheep at all; this is referring to those people who would be classified as goats. Note that these ones here believed they were Christian - how else would they be doing things in His name? But Christ never knew them.

... and again

MATTHEW 24:39

For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

It violates every bible principle to suggest humans can establish their own righteousness, irrespective of what God wants (and even deny his very existence - after all many atheists are humanitarians) and be rewarded for this.

Nothing I shared about the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) violates the principle of love (which God is... 1John 4:8).
Nothing I shared about those same sheep violates the principle of mercy (which God desires... Matt 12:7; Hosea 6:6)


You threw in the phrase 'irrespective of what God wants', but do you think God does not want us to feed the hungry; clothe the naked; be merciful to others; give to those in need, etc? Do you think it violates bible principles for God to have mercy on such ones? What about in light of Christ's own words:


Be merciful, and mercy will be shown you.


There are people of the nations who will be declared righteous on the basis of what they do (because they show by what they do NATURALLY that the requirements of the law - of love - are written upon their hearts. That is their heart condition. Romans 2:13-16)


These ones will not reign as kings and priests with Christ - but they will still be invited into the Kingdom as subjects of that Kingdom.

People may not be condemned for humanitarianism, but of itself it is no basis for everlasting life. The bible is quite clear

JOHN 17:3

This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Knowing (having union with) God and His Son does mean eternal life.

But I thought you believed that there are some who come to know them during the thousand years as well?

SHEEP Jesus never refers to unbelievers as being his sheep. He consistently refers to them as those who do their best to follow his guidance, who are fed by his "brothers" and who are to be protected from false teachings.

The sheep here in the sheep and the goats parable are non-Christian (that is not the same as being an unbeliever; some Jews were called unbelievers but that did not mean that they were atheists. A non-believer is not the same thing as an unbeliever).

Christ also refers to His own people - His brothers - as sheep, who hear His voice; whom He calls by name; of whom He is the Shepherd.


And in Ezekiel, God states that He will judge between sheep and sheep.


Sheep can be used in more than one way.

But doesn't even that mean the sheep cannot be believers?

• Only if one disregards the point of giving the illustration namely to inform them in advance of this high regard. It wasn't given to encourage ignorance of Christ's ferlings (in order to "qualify" as a sheep) that would be a very perverse and unscriptureal reading) it was given to INFORM what Christ wants us to know about his feelings.

No one suggest that it was given to encourage ignorance of Christ. It tells us what will happen when Christ returns. It also tells us the truth - that whatever a person does for even a least one of His brothers; that person does for Him. It also shows both love and mercy from God and His Son; and at the same time helps to answer the question about what will happen to those who are not Christian. Paul speaks about that as well in Romans 2:14-16.

FOOD? CHECK! CLOTHES? CHECK! PREACH? GET LOST!

• Those committed to a literal reading of Jesus illustration miss the whole point of his discourse. While anointed Christians (like anyone living in this system) may fall into need of physical provisions from time to time, Jesus wasn't providing an exhautive "CHECKLIST" . Like the Pharisees of Jesus day modern days nominal Christians take the position, if its not specifically mentioned in the illustration, it cannot apply. So if one of his brothers needed, for example transportation these modern-day "Pharisee-Christians" will say "Nope sorry not one of these things is what Christ mentioned. so I can't help you." Or if one of Christ's brothers needed emotional support dealing with grief these Pharisee-Christians will ask "Where did Jesus mention grief in Matthew 25?"

No one has said anything that you have suggested above; the reason 'preaching' is not one of the things listed is because the sheep are not Christian.

And if a call goes out to help preach the good news of the kingdom these Pharisee-Christians will ignore Matthew 28:19, 20 and whine like the lazy and good for nothing slave with his weak excuses when his master returned, "Where is it in chapter 25!?"

If they are Christian, then they bear witness to Christ out of love for Him and His Father, however they are led to do so. Not because some men in some religion tell them to do this.

"Out of the heart's abundance, the mouth speaks."


As for the whole 'Pharisee-like' Christians slur - please just stop. A religion that invents and enforces man-made rules - like shunning over smoking - should not be pointing fingers at anyone else and calling them "Pharisee-like".

True Christians get the real point of the illustration which is: Help my brothers in any and every way possible and you will be rewarded.

A true Christian is one of His brothers. The sad thing here is that those who call themselves His brothers in the WTS, turn around and tell the rest of her members that you are not His brothers - and that you must serve and help them if you want eternal life.

They have taken the parable and twisted it to serve themselves. It is so perverse. They (if they were truly the brothers of Christ) are supposed to be serving you... not telling you to serve them.

WHAT DO THEY NEED?

• Christ's brothers have one mission in life, that is to hold true to their calling and obey Christ's commands. What work did he COMMAND them to do?
  
  

  
  
  MATTHEW 28/19? 20
  
  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you..

Then the WTS has failed in this from the start. Because Christ commanded His brothers to eat and drink the bread and wine that mean His body and His blood. If His brothers are to teach the disciples to observe ALL the things that He has commanded them, that must include teaching the disciples to observe the command to eat and drink as well.

The WTS teaches the exact opposite of what Christ commanded.


"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will raise them up on the last day."

But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come!" And may anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"





Peace again to you, and to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[polonius]

JW posted:

(quote) Quote:
MATTHEW 28/19? 20

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.. (/quote)

RESPONSE There are five baptisms described in the New Testament. ALL are in the name of Jesus alone, never a Trinity. What does that suggest about an interpolation of Matthew's gospel at some later date?