Is hell eternal or not?

[scorpia]

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 10 Post 17

>Wonders why it's necessary to try to verify anything about the Bible<

Just pointing out for the observer that claims made have the support of only one source.
If we are to interpret scripture, the more support we have independent of the original source, the more valid our arguments.

(edit for tags)

[myth-one.com]

From Page 10 Post 17

>Wonders why it's necessary to try to verify anything about the Bible<

Just pointing out for the observer that claims made have the support of only one source.
If we are to interpret scripture, the more support we have independent of the original source, the more valid our arguments.

(edit for tags)

Just pointing out for the observer that there is no Post 17 on Page 10 in this thread. Where did Myth-one.com ever write, "Wonders why it's necessary to try to verify anything about the Bible."
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"I want the truth!"

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[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 10 Post 17

>Wonders why it's necessary to try to verify anything about the Bible<

Just pointing out for the observer that claims made have the support of only one source.
If we are to interpret scripture, the more support we have independent of the original source, the more valid our arguments.

(edit for tags)

Just pointing out for the observer that there is no Post 17 on Page 10 in this thread. Where did Myth-one.com ever write, "Wonders why it's necessary to try to verify anything about the Bible."

lulz. Confused the date with the post number.

Shoulda said:
From Page 10 Post 100

In trying to point out the reference quote, I quoted you and used the not uncommon ><'s to note I was paraphrasing. I agree you or even the observer may be unaware of this, but looking back through my posts will show that I do this, and I don't think most folks would see my doing so as dishonest (though you don't seem to be claiming I am being dishonest). My wording was not an attempt to misrepresent, or distort, but for brevity. This is why I try to reference the page/post as well.

I still stand by my position though. The more sources we have the better. As many Christians/theists within these forums have different opinions of the nature of Hell, I don't think it invalid to ask the questions I asked. As the Bible tells us (and who will deny) we are fallible humans, I think it is legitimate to seek outside verification for claims made.

In light of the varying interpretations about the nature of Hell, If we are to verify its nature, wouldn't we want to verify it exists in the first place? The more outside sources of verification we have, the more likely we can consider its existence. Once we verify it actually does exist, then we can think about its nature. In verifying its nature, in light of the varying interpretations thereof, I don't think it unreasonable to seek outside verification for this as well.

I do note the forum room is "Theology, Doctrine, & Dogma". I would hope someone's theology, doctrine, and dogma would be grounded in fact. If it is grounded in opinion, then let's point this out. We don't need to fear opinion, we don't even need to dismiss it, but I hope all would agree that an opinion based on verifiable data would hold more weight, more accuracy, and more validity than opinion devoid of fact. As the amount of sources that support an opinion grows, we can eventually upgrade that opinion to fact.

[myth-one.com]

I still stand by my position though. The more sources we have the better. As many Christians/theists within these forums have different opinions of the nature of Hell, I don't think it invalid to ask the questions I asked. As the Bible tells us (and who will deny) we are fallible humans, I think it is legitimate to seek outside verification for claims made.

Do you have any outside verification that there is no God or hell?

As the amount of sources that support an opinion grows, we can eventually upgrade that opinion to fact.

OK, we can settle the existance of God and His identity here and now. Let a poll be taken of every human on the earth. Everyone can vote his or her opinion in secret. Every possible religion would be included on the ballot. "There is no God" would also be a choice on the ballot. All possible options are voted on by all living humans.

And the winner is?? I'm not sure, but I recently read that Muslims had recently overtaken Christians as the majority religion. Let's assume that is correct, and let's assume that there are fewer atheists that Muslims.

In which case the winner is Islam!

The sources supporting that opinion was the largest segment of the entire world, so certainly that number is sufficient to proclaim the outcome a fact. The true and factual religion is Islam. Allah is God and all should worship Him.

[JoeyKnothead]

I see this is just one more issue devolving into 'debate the debater'. I'm confident the observer can decide the veracity of claims made without supporting evidence.

[myth-one.com]

I see this is just one more issue devolving into 'debate the debater'. I'm confident the observer can decide the veracity of claims made without supporting evidence.

In the above posting, you claim observers can decide the veracity of claims without supporting evidence. Yet in your previous posting # 103 on this very page, you write the following:

The more sources we have the better... I think it is legitimate to seek outside verification for claims made.... The more outside sources of verification we have... I don't think it unreasonable to seek outside verification... I hope all would agree that an opinion based on verifiable data would hold more weight, more accuracy, and more validity than opinion devoid of fact. As the amount of sources that support an opinion grows, we can eventually upgrade that opinion to fact.

You have quickly changed you "opinion."
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Suppose that the population of the earth is 7 billion people, and all 7 billion are of the opinion that there is no God. Does that prove there is no God? No.

But suppose that the opinion of all 7 billion is that God does exist. Does that prove there is a God? No.

God cannot be proved to exist or not to exist. So the amount of sources that support an opinion regarding the existance or non-existance of God matters not. Those believing in God, do so on faith. The Bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

I'm a Christian, and it strikes me as important that my holy book, The Bible, recognizes two worlds and that man cannot understand the heavenly world. This is Jesus speaking in the Book of John:

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3:11-12)

There are two worlds, the earthly and the heavenly. Beings in the heavenly world understand both worlds. Man can only know the physical world.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 11 Post 105

I see this is just one more issue devolving into 'debate the debater'. I'm confident the observer can decide the veracity of claims made without supporting evidence.

From Page 11 Post 106

Suppose that the population of the earth is 7 billion people, and all 7 billion are of the opinion that there is no God. Does that prove there is no God? No.

But suppose that the opinion of all 7 billion is that God does exist. Does that prove there is a God? No.

God cannot be proved to exist or not to exist. So the amount of sources that support an opinion regarding the existance or non-existance of God matters not. Those believing in God, do so on faith. The Bible defines faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

Now let's look at the claims for which I originally spoke, the claims for which I originally asked for verification...

From Page 10 Post 97 referencing Page 10 Post 96

The devil is a spiritual being and lives forever. Therefore, his place of restraint, hell, also lasts forever.

Please explain how we can verify this indepent of the book that claims it so.

I've yet to see any attempt to verify this. I've seen a whole lot of questioning my audacity in asking for this to be verified.

Two "deaths" are described in the scriptures, the first death and the second death. The first death is that of our physical bodies as they exist now

Please explain how this can be verified independent of the original source for the claim.

?

This second death is optional depending on whether or not one accepts Jesus as their Savior from sin. The most important thing to notice is that it is a death! Death is the penalty, and the penalty is eternal. That is, they will never live again. The act of dying occurs quickly. It is not eternal torture!

Please explain how we can verify:
1- This second death occurs.
2- This second death is 'optional'.
3- The act of dying occurs 'quickly'. I think I can beleive the death itself is a 'pixel' away, but what does this say about folks who are starving, or have cancer.

?

After all have been judged and either been born again as spirits or killed in the lake of fire described as the second death, there is no longer any need for the concept of death.

Please explain how we can verify:
1- Folks are 'judged'.
2- Folks are 'born again'.
3- Folks are 'born again' as 'spirits'.
4- There is 'no longer any need for the concept of death'. I can agree folks who die probably have no need for the concept, but what does this say of the living?

?

At this point, everyone in existence is a spiritual body which will live forever. Any former humans still alive, exist as spirits.

Please explain:
1- How this can be verified outside the book that originally makes the claim.
2- How everyone in existence is a spiritual body.
3- How everyone in existence will live forever.
4- How any humans still alive exist as spirits.

?

After the last unbeliever is cast into hell and dies, death is no longer a valid concept, and there is no longer any need for a grave.

Please explain:
1- How we can verify this independent of the original claim.
2- How we can verify unbelievers will be cast into Hell and die.

?

Since no one will ever die again, no one will ever be buried in a grave again.

Please explain, independent of the original source:
1- How no one will ever die again.

?

The concepts of death and hell (the grave) are both cast into the lake of fire and destroyed

Please explain how we can verify:
1- A concept can be cast into a lake of fire.
2- A concept can be destroyed.

?

This new heaven and earth refer to our new earth and sky, not heaven where God resides

Please show how we can verify:
1- This heaven exists.
2- This heaven is not the one in which God resides.

?

God's heaven was not made desolate by the rebellious angels and men who ruled over the earth, so it did not need to be made anew

Please show how we can verify:
1- This God's heaven exists.
2- These rebellious angels exist.
3- These rebellious angels and men ruled over earth.

?

God's will is not presently being done on the Earth, so the Earth is not now included in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Please explain how we can verify when God's will is being done.

?

In any event, you will be an unrestrained spirit with freedom of choice. If you desire to go to heaven there should be nothing to stop you. However, based on the description and conditions of the new earth and new Jerusalem, no one should desire to leave!

Please explain how we can verify:
1- Folks will be unrestrained 'spirits'.
2- This heaven exists to be desirous of.

?

I give up, I don't feel it's my responsibility to make folks abide by the forum rules.

[myth-one.com]

I give up, I don't feel it's my responsibility to make folks abide by the forum rules.

I accept your surrender. I agree it's not your responsibility. Once again, excellent voluminous posting!

[JoeyKnothead]

I give up, I don't feel it's my responsibility to make folks abide by the forum rules.

I accept your surrender. I agree it's not your responsibility. Once again, excellent voluminous posting!

It was your 'voluminous' post I was asking you to prove. Which, by the way, you still continue to refuse to do.

It was your continually dodging the rules of the forum I gave up on.

Once again, we see a theist claim anything they want and just drag the argument out without one shred of evidence.

Once again, we see a theist fail to prove their claims, and then attempt to claim 'victory' because someone gets tired of asking them to.

How is it some religious folks can quote the most obscure passage in a religious text, but when it comes to Forum Rule #5, they suddenly don't know how to read?

[myth-one.com]

How is it some religious folks can quote the most obscure passage in a religious text, but when it comes to Forum Rule #5, they suddenly don't know how to read?

The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with "but first you have to prove that the Bible is true" is not allowed here.

5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not make blanket statements that are not supportable by logic/evidence.

I backed up what you call my opinions with quotes from the Bible. I call it Christian Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma, whose source is the Holy Bible. Once again, again, & again ... your counterpoint would be to show that my statements were not supported in the scriptures. That is, they are not Christian Dogma.

But anyway, you have surrendered, and I accepted your surrender. No takes backs! You have the right to remain silent . . .
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"There is nothing like a victory" -- Some famous coach?