144,000= Christians zealous for God; others will be tortured

[holyisthelord]

the 144,000: Christians zealous for God; pray hard to be one of them

the 144,000 who are sealed in Revelation 7 are "spiritual Israel," not ethnic Jews, who are said by Jesus to be of the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2,3):
-"The real Jew" is the person who is "circumcized in the heart" (Romans 2:28)
-Christians are children of "the heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4), which represents the "city" (association) of true Christians.

Israel means "has prevailed with God" [in gaining the "blessing" of eternal life which Jacob/Israel strove with Jesus "the angel of the LORD" for in Genesis 32]

The 144,000 correspond to members of the Church of Philadelphia & Smyrna, the only two of the seven churches (which represents all people professing to be Christians today, throughout history, and in John's day) not rebuked by Jesus in Revelation 2-3 and threatened to be "cast" into terrible "Tribulation".

If you are not one of these 144,000 people because you are "lukewarm" for God & fellow humans (Rev. 3:15), you will have to suffer the immense pains described in Revelation & the rest of the Bible (ex. the plagues of Exodus) as a taste of Hell, so that you will depart from sin since "the fear of the LORD causes a man to depart from evil." God says "those whom I love, I discipline." (Rev. 3, Hebrews 12)

"Pray at all times that you will be worthy to escape these things" (Luke 21) which "are about to come upon the whole habitable Earth" (Rev. 3:10) during the Great Tribulation.

"The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6) We often have to interpret the Bible metaphorically (not by "the letter"), and can only do so correctly by praying for the Holy Spirit's enlightenment.

Debate Question: Who are the 144,000?

[sorrowtojoy]

Debate Question: Who are the 144,000?

why are all of you arguing about a source that none of you have read?

i don't have a systemic or comprehensive interpretation of all of apocalyptic symbolism. take time once in a while... be a little slower to speak... read before you lash out.

Another question: When there are millions of christains how can a god chose that few and not be malovant?

read the context... verses 3 - 8 are about the 144,000. verse 9 says "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes..."

I believe the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel = 144,000 are also virgins.

where does that come from?

I ask again; are these detailed and specific interpretations the only ones possible? If not, why are others not at least as likely as this one?

How can anyone claim to know the one true meaning of Revelation in the kind of detail shown here? That book is couched in symbolism and metaphor so obscure as to render it entirely opaque. Who says THIS reading is the right one?

I seriously assume your being hyperbolic... it's not entirely opaque. the first seven chapters are pretty clear with a broad knowledge of the rest of the bible. you may ask me how i can be sure that 7, 3, and 12 are numbers often representative of perfection, and that if one is multiplied by itself it means ad infinitum, perpetually, or constant until completion. it's a literary tradition just like any other.

there are more important things to debate than symbols... especially when even Christ said that no one knows the time of the occurrence of the events they represent.

[Cathar1950]

I believe the 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel = 144,000 are also virgins.

where does that come from?

From Revelations?

Revelation 14:3-5 (ESV)
“ And they were singing a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and before the elders. No one could learn that song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. For it is these who have
not defiled themselves with women,
for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb, and in their mouth no lie was found, for they are blameless.

You really need to keep up on this stuff and arm yourself with that two-edged sword.

there are more important things to debate than symbols... especially when even Christ said that no one knows the time of the occurrence of the events they represent.

A later writer wrote that Jesus said that. I think the OP was looking for the meaning of the 144,000 and I don't know how your propose to explain with out an understanding of the symbolism. Maybe you can tell use what those "more important things" are?

[cnorman18]

I seriously assume your being hyperbolic... it's not entirely opaque. the first seven chapters are pretty clear with a broad knowledge of the rest of the bible. you may ask me how i can be sure that 7, 3, and 12 are numbers often representative of perfection, and that if one is multiplied by itself it means ad infinitum, perpetually, or constant until completion. it's a literary tradition just like any other.

there are more important things to debate than symbols... especially when even Christ said that no one knows the time of the occurrence of the events they represent.

The secondary question might have been rhetorical, but it wasn't hyperbolic; and symbols are precisely what this argument is based on. In any case, I didn't ask what your reasoning was.

You didn't answer the two primary questions.

I ask again;

Are these detailed and specific interpretations the only ones possible?

If not,

Why are others not at least as likely as this one?

[sorrowtojoy]

where does that come from?

You really need to keep up on this stuff and arm yourself with that two-edged sword.

that's why i asked. thanks for telling me where it came from. i wanted to know.

there are more important things to debate than symbols... especially when even Christ said that no one knows the time of the occurrence of the events they represent.

A later writer wrote that Jesus said that. I think the OP was looking for the meaning of the 144,000 and I don't know how your propose to explain with out an understanding of the symbolism. Maybe you can tell use what those "more important things" are?

I'm sorry. I became frustrated with the comments that asked "why only 144,000?" when the context of Rev. 7 clearly spells out that the multitude of Christians around the throne was innumerable. I apologize, because that frustration set the tone for the rest of my post, and I didn't take my own advice(i.e. virgins:).

it doesn't really matter that I think the 144,000 are a symbol of the countless(12x12) servants of God(stated, Rev 7:3), made righteous(virginity?) not by their own work but by the sacrifice of Christ(the seal of the living God). what i propose, in reference to the OP, is that we don't need to figure it out.

i do believe there are more important things. when Christ, in Matthew 24-25(please read), speaks of the end of the age, His return, and the final judgment, He says we cannot know the day or the hour of its occurrence, and should not believe those who say it is about to happen or is happening. our lives should be lived the same way whether He is about to return or is a thousand years away.

what we do now is more important for us to focus on than what is prophesied for the future. therefore, for a Christian, the present is lived in hope for the future and in belief that what God says will come to pass, but not in worry over it's moment of occurrence.

what we, as Christians, should be worried about is whether we love the one who first loved us, and love others as we have been loved... being humble, protecting the poor and the fatherless from injustice, showing grace, being patient, giving unselfishly.



quick question:

...especially when even Christ said that no one knows the time of the occurrence of the events they represent.

A later writer wrote that Jesus said that.

?not matthew?

[sorrowtojoy]

The secondary question might have been rhetorical, but it wasn't hyperbolic; and symbols are precisely what this argument is based on. In any case, I didn't ask what your reasoning was.

You didn't answer the two primary questions.

I ask again;

Are these detailed and specific interpretations the only ones possible?

If not,

Why are others not at least as likely as this one?

1. Definitely not. There are a lot of symbols in Revelation that aren't explained in that book, and could reference more than one likely concept. You might to tell me I'm copping out, but I don't think God needs us to know in detail what the future is.

2. Some are.

[holyisthelord]

IF YOU ARE NOT A LITERAL VIRGIN, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE MUCH OF THE SUFFERING DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION VERY SOON. (Revelation 14:1-4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins", Revelation 7, 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, 1 Corinthians 7:27-28 (the word "tribulation" & "spare" appears here in the Greek, the same word applied to the Great Tribulation in Revelation), Isaiah 56 & Matthew 19 both say eunuchs for the Kingdom are rewarded more) Therefore, prepare yourself by diligently seeking God through prayer and "meditating on the law of the LORD day & night" (Psalm 1) so that you are not part of the 2/3 of lukewarm Christians who will "fall" in the "wilderness" because of temptation and end up in Hell forever "where the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48)

[cnorman18]

IF YOU ARE NOT A LITERAL VIRGIN, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE MUCH OF THE SUFFERING DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION VERY SOON. (Revelation 14:1-4 "These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins", Revelation 7, 1 Corinthians 7:8-9, 1 Corinthians 7:27-28 (the word "tribulation" & "spare" appears here in the Greek, the same word applied to the Great Tribulation in Revelation), Isaiah 56 & Matthew 19 both say eunuchs for the Kingdom are rewarded more) Therefore, prepare yourself by diligently seeking God through prayer and "meditating on the law of the LORD day & night" (Psalm 1) so that you are not part of the 2/3 of lukewarm Christians who will "fall" in the "wilderness" because of temptation and end up in Hell forever "where the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:48)

I ask again;

Are these detailed and specific interpretations the only ones possible?

If not,

Why are others not at least as likely as this one?

[Ooberman]

A conservative estimate of 12 billion people that have ever been alive, and able to become one of the 144K.

144,000/12,000,000,000 x 100 = 0.0012%

That means you have to be better than 99.9988% of everyone. Considering the roughly 125,000 prophets and messengers of God, the open slots get more rare.

So, basically you'd have to be one of about 19,000 people who fit the requirements AND be slightly better than any number of "Good" Xians.

I think someone would have to be insane to believe that they are one of the 144,000, since the chances would be so slim to be one of the chosen, that it would be more likely that you are insane then actually one of the chosen.

That is, there are millions of insane people, but only 144K chosen.

Personally, I'd definitely err on the side of not being one of the chosen... but that's just my opinion.

[The_Student]

the 144,000: Christians zealous for God; pray hard to be one of them

the 144,000 who are sealed in Revelation 7 are "spiritual Israel," not ethnic Jews, who are said by Jesus to be of the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 2,3):
-"The real Jew" is the person who is "circumcized in the heart" (Romans 2:28)
-Christians are children of "the heavenly Jerusalem" (Galatians 4), which represents the "city" (association) of true Christians.

Israel means "has prevailed with God" [in gaining the "blessing" of eternal life which Jacob/Israel strove with Jesus "the angel of the LORD" for in Genesis 32]

The 144,000 correspond to members of the Church of Philadelphia & Smyrna, the only two of the seven churches (which represents all people professing to be Christians today, throughout history, and in John's day) not rebuked by Jesus in Revelation 2-3 and threatened to be "cast" into terrible "Tribulation".

If you are not one of these 144,000 people because you are "lukewarm" for God & fellow humans (Rev. 3:15), you will have to suffer the immense pains described in Revelation & the rest of the Bible (ex. the plagues of Exodus) as a taste of Hell, so that you will depart from sin since "the fear of the LORD causes a man to depart from evil." God says "those whom I love, I discipline." (Rev. 3, Hebrews 12)

"Pray at all times that you will be worthy to escape these things" (Luke 21) which "are about to come upon the whole habitable Earth" (Rev. 3:10) during the Great Tribulation.

"The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 3:6) We often have to interpret the Bible metaphorically (not by "the letter"), and can only do so correctly by praying for the Holy Spirit's enlightenment.

Debate Question: Who are the 144,000?

They are all from the tribes of Israel

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:5 Of the tribe of Juda [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:6 Of the tribe of Aser [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:7 Of the tribe of Simeon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar [were] sealed twelve thousand.
Rev 7:8 Of the tribe of Zabulon [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph [were] sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin [were] sealed twelve thousand.

If you are not one of these 144,000 people because you are "lukewarm" for God & fellow humans (Rev. 3:15), you will have to suffer the immense pains described in Revelation & the rest of the Bible (ex. the plagues of Exodus) as a taste of Hell, so that you will depart from sin since "the fear of the LORD causes a man to depart from evil." God says "those whom I love, I discipline." (Rev. 3, Hebrews 12)

If your stand is the 144,000 people will be saved then read further:

Revelations 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.

Can you count how many more are going to be saved????

[Ooberman]

It seems as if there are the 144,000 Preferred Members, and then a countless number of "others".

What does countless mean? Many or literally countless (infinite)?