Denominations...The downfall of Christianity?

The Sour Rabbit · Post by **The Sour Rabbit** » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:52 am

Questions:

Should there be denominations?

How can the church be unified again?

C.S. Lewis had an interesting proposition that every Catholic should lay his/her rosary down and every Protestant should pick one up...thoughts?

What would a unified church look like?

I know its not a real debate, but i guess its just something to be thinking about.

msmcneal · Post by **msmcneal** » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:19 am

Paul said, in 1st Corinthians 1:13 (I believe it was), that there should be no divisions (which is listed as a sin of the flesh in Galations 5), and that all of Christ's followers should be of the same mind and speak the same thing. This is not what we see in the denominations today. Jesus said in John 17 that his followers should all be one, and that the world would know that they were his disciples if they were unified. This is not the case today of Christianity. From a biblical perspective, should there be denominations? No. Are there? Yes. What does this mean? Probably different things to different people. It's one of the reason why I left Christianity.

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:09 am

msmcneal wrote:Paul said, in 1st Corinthians 1:13 (I believe it was), that there should be no divisions (which is listed as a sin of the flesh in Galations 5), and that all of Christ's followers should be of the same mind and speak the same thing. This is not what we see in the denominations today. Jesus said in John 17 that his followers should all be one, and that the world would know that they were his disciples if they were unified. This is not the case today of Christianity. From a biblical perspective, should there be denominations? No. Are there? Yes. What does this mean? Probably different things to different people. It's one of the reason why I left Christianity.

The verse in 1 Corinthians 1 you were looking for is verse 10. Actually, Paul spends the better part of the first 4 chapters of 1 Corinthians roundly condemning denominationalism, calling those who practice it "carnal" in 3:3-4. And to be carnally minded is to be at enmity with God according to Romans 8:6-7. Denominationalism is sinful and injurious to the cause of Christ. Jesus prayed in John 17:20-23 that those who believed in Him through the teaching of the apostles would be one, like He and the Father are one, so that the world would believe that God had sent Him. The problem you've seen is not a problem with the Lord or His church, but with men who have transgressed and gone beyond the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

I am sorry to read that you left Christianity because of denominationalism. But at least you acknowledge that it is possible to have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God (Hebrews 3:12). Some who claim to be Christians will argue until they are blue in the face that that's impossible. I would encourage you to reconsider and repent (John 14:6, John 8:24, Luke 13:3).

It is possible to replicate the church that we read about in the New Testament. God's word is likened to a seed (Luke 8:11). Wherever that seed is planted in good hearts (those willing to hear, believe and obey) Christians are the result (Acts 2, Acts 11:26). Christians meeting together to work and worship according to the commandments of the Lord Jesus form congregations or churches that belong to Christ all over the world (John 8:31, Colossians 3:17, Romans 16:16, 1 Corinthians 1:2). Since they have no creed but Christ (John 1:1-3, 14), they share the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace, and are members of the one body of Christ, which is His church (Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:1-6, Acts 2:47).

msmcneal · Post by **msmcneal** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:37 am

Amos said:

The verse in 1 Corinthians 1 you were looking for is verse 10

Thanks for the correction. I was just too lazy to look it up.

Amos said:

The problem you've seen is not a problem with the Lord or His church, but with men who have transgressed and gone beyond the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

But then that begs the question: can "Christ's church" be divided, if God is in control of it by his Holy Spirit? Would God allow such a thing? I can agree with the second part of your statement, but I disagree with the first part. I believe that if Jesus actually established his church, like it says in Matthew 16, and that the gates of hell would not overcome it, the second part should not even be an issue. But it is.

Amos said:

am sorry to read that you left Christianity because of denominationalism

This isn't the only reason, just one of the many. There's too many to list here, especially since this thread is specifically about denominationalism. But it's really disconcerting to see it.

Amos said:

I would encourage you to reconsider and repent

As an agnostic, unless I go to full atheism, anything is possible. I don't count anything out. But I have to admit, I really don't see that happening. It's just too illogical.

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:50 am

Amos wrote:Actually, Paul spends the better part of the first 4 chapters of 1 Corinthians roundly condemning denominationalism, calling those who practice it "carnal" in 3:3-4. And to be carnally minded is to be at enmity with God according to Romans 8:6-7. Denominationalism is sinful and injurious to the cause of Christ. Jesus prayed in John 17:20-23 that those who believed in Him through the teaching of the apostles would be one, like He and the Father are one, so that the world would believe that God had sent Him. The problem you've seen is not a problem with the Lord or His church, but with men who have transgressed and gone beyond the doctrine of Christ (2 John 9).

If this is true, then why is it that denominationalism endures? Why don't the Christian leaders put this evil behind them? Why don't the majority of the Christians reject denominational ties?

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 12:55 pm

McCulloch wrote:If this is true, then why is it that denominationalism endures? Why don't the Christian leaders put this evil behind them? Why don't the majority of the Christians reject denominational ties?

McCulloch, why does any sin endure? Does the continued existence of murder somehow make it less sinful (Revelation 21:8)?

Sin endures because men engage in lawlessness, refusing to abide in the doctrine of Christ (1 John 3:4, 2 John 9). I have shown that the Scriptures teach that denominationalism is sinful. What the Bible says is not changed by the fact that men will not submit to it (Romans 3:4, 1 Peter 1:22-25).

msmcneal, you said: "can "Christ's church" be divided, if God is in control of it by his Holy Spirit? Would God allow such a thing? I can agree with the second part of your statement, but I disagree with the first part. I believe that if Jesus actually established his church, like it says in Matthew 16, and that the gates of hell would not overcome it, the second part should not even be an issue. But it is."

Please note the following passages:
Acts 20:28-31 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
2 Timothy 4:1-4 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,

False teachers were foretold from Jesus' earthly ministry forward (Matthew 7:15, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1). Those who heed their false teaching will suffer the same condemnation as the false teacher (2 Peter 2:2, 3:14-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Those who hold and teach false doctrines are to be marked and avoided, and cease to have fellowship with Christians and with God (Romans 16:17-18, 2 John 9-11, 1 John 1:1-7).

The nature of truth doesn't allow for all of the contradictory doctrines that are taught by denominations. Contradicting positions can both be wrong, but not both right. We can and must know the truth (John 8:32, Ephesians 3:3-4, Ephesians 5:17).

Men are led by the Spirit of God only insofar as they are led by the Scriptures, the word of God (Romans 8:1-17, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 3:16). We can choose to accept or reject the teaching of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (John 12:48, James 1:18-25). The church of Christ is indestructible and everlasting because God's word is indestructible and everlasting (1 Peter 1:22-25). Wherever that word is taught, heard and obeyed, the church of Christ is the result (Acts 2, Acts 11:19-26, Acts 18:1-8, 1 Corinthians 1:2).

msmcneal · Post by **msmcneal** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 6:14 pm

Amos wrote:False teachers were foretold from Jesus' earthly ministry forward (Matthew 7:15, 2 Peter 2:1, 1 John 4:1). Those who heed their false teaching will suffer the same condemnation as the false teacher (2 Peter 2:2, 3:14-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12). Those who hold and teach false doctrines are to be marked and avoided, and cease to have fellowship with Christians and with God (Romans 16:17-18, 2 John 9-11, 1 John 1:1-7).

The nature of truth doesn't allow for all of the contradictory doctrines that are taught by denominations. Contradicting positions can both be wrong, but not both right. We can and must know the truth (John 8:32, Ephesians 3:3-4, Ephesians 5:17).

Men are led by the Spirit of God only insofar as they are led by the Scriptures, the word of God (Romans 8:1-17, 2 Timothy 3:16-17, 2 Peter 3:16). We can choose to accept or reject the teaching of Christ, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (John 12:48, James 1:18-25). The church of Christ is indestructible and everlasting because God's word is indestructible and everlasting (1 Peter 1:22-25). Wherever that word is taught, heard and obeyed, the church of Christ is the result (Acts 2, Acts 11:19-26, Acts 18:1-8, 1 Corinthians 1:2).

But these aren't the solution, these are the problem. You say "Men are led by the Spirit of God only insofar as they are led by the Scriptures, the word of God" But there are literally thousands of different denominations each with their own version of what the Bible says and means. How do we determine which is true? Obviously the Bible cannot be our guide. The Bible, it seems to me, is the problem. Even the early church, who taught that Holy Tradition was to be the interpreter of scripture, while this was actually the best solution for a thousand years, eventually fell apart as well. So how does one determine, which denominatin is the correct one? Or, how does one determine a right believing church from a false believing church? It simply cannot be the Bible, because they all use the Bible. If it's what the individual reads in the Bible, this further makes the problem worse. The Bible cannot be the solution, because it's the problem. So, my question, is what other solution can there be?

Catharsis · Post by **Catharsis** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:33 pm

>>>Even the early church, who taught that Holy Tradition was to be the interpreter of scripture, while this was actually the best solution for a thousand years, eventually fell apart as well.<<<

What if the 'early' Church never fell apart and is not dead?

msmcneal · Post by **msmcneal** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 11:14 pm

Catharsis wrote:What if the 'early' Church never fell apart and is not dead?

That's the reason why I spent the last six or seven years of my Christian life as as Eastern Orthodox Christian. I felt that the Orthodox Church had kept to the traditions of the early church, and had inerrantly kept the true faith "delivered once to the apostles" as Jude puts it. However, due to other problems I had with Christianity overall, I no longer felt it was an important issue, at least not important enough to keep me in the faith.

Catharsis · Post by **Catharsis** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:12 am

It seems that you had doubts even before becoming Orthodox. I sure hope you didn't get baptized just for the "sake" of belonging to The Church, or some other similar reason.

It's your decision, but I wonder what's the nature of 'problems' you have with Christianity in general?

Amos · Post by **Amos** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 12:20 am

msmcneal wrote:
But these aren't the solution, these are the problem. You say "Men are led by the Spirit of God only insofar as they are led by the Scriptures, the word of God" But there are literally thousands of different denominations each with their own version of what the Bible says and means. How do we determine which is true? Obviously the Bible cannot be our guide. The Bible, it seems to me, is the problem. Even the early church, who taught that Holy Tradition was to be the interpreter of scripture, while this was actually the best solution for a thousand years, eventually fell apart as well. So how does one determine, which denominatin is the correct one? Or, how does one determine a right believing church from a false believing church? It simply cannot be the Bible, because they all use the Bible. If it's what the individual reads in the Bible, this further makes the problem worse. The Bible cannot be the solution, because it's the problem. So, my question, is what other solution can there be?

Yes, men have perverted the Scriptures, just as was prophesied (2 Peter 3:16). Men have failed to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). Many will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they have heaped up for themselves teachers; and have turned their ears away from the truth, and have turned aside to fables (2 Timothy 4:3-4). There may, indeed, be thousands of interpretations, but there is only ONE faith (Ephesians 4:5).

Paul says in Ephesians 3:3-4 that God had revealed to him the mystery of Christ, and that when we read what he wrote, we can understand what he understood--have the same knowledge that he had. He implored Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15 to study so that he could rightly divide the word of truth. This implies that the word of truth can be wrongly divided. He told the Ephesians not to be unwise, but to understand what the will of the Lord is (Ephesians 5:17). Jesus said we will know the truth (John 8:32), and that God's word is truth (John 17:17). Paul said that the Scriptures are able to make us wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. That the Scriptures are profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Timothy 3:15-17). Peter said in 2 Peter 1:3 that we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue.

Jesus said His word will judge us in the last day (John 12:48). Paul said Christ will judge the secrets of men according to his gospel (Romans 2:16). In Romans 2:2, Paul said the judgment of God is according to truth. John 17:17 tells us the word of God IS truth. Peter said that the word of the Lord that endures forever was preached to us by the gospel (1 Peter 1:25). The point here: how just is God if He is going to hold us accountable to a standard that He failed to reveal to us in such a way that we could understand it? How just is God if He tells us to be of the same mind and judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10), and then gives us a "revelation" that is impossible for us to understand alike?