Goose wrote:This isn't really relevant here. We are discussing whether or not one needs to be a disciple to be saved. Not, what is a True Christian.
To me being "saved" and being a "True Christian" are one in the same. If you are not a true Christian, you are not saved.
OnceConvinced wrote:...However here are some scriptures I have recorded that talk about certain things that must be done to be assured salvation:
Matthew: 7: 21-24 wrote:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
Here is the full passage:
Matthew: 7:15-23
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
This passage above is giving instruction on how to know whether someone is a believer or false prophet/wolf in sheep's clothing. It's not a passage setting out requirements for salvation.
Word_swordsman once tried to claim the same. It seems to me though that this critieria would also allow you to determine who are true Christians and who are not. I don't see why it should be just applied to false prophets. See the parts in the middle of this scripture about trees bearing fruit. Would you claim those words are directed only at false prophets?
In fact, all the verses you've cited have to do with determining how one is to know a believer from a wolf. These are not passages listing the "things that must be done to be assured salvation."
IN a sense they are. How to tell who the true Christians are and who are not. If you are not doing the things a Christian is expected of them, then you are not showing the fruits so are clearly not saved.
The full passage: 1 John 2:3-6 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Exactly. So how can you claim to be a Christian and "saved" if you are not walking as Jesus did? It seems that showing the extra part of that verse has strengthened my case that you must follow him (be a disciple) to be saved. See the command there? Whoever claims to live in him, MUST walk as Jesus did. That's being a disciple. How can you not "be in him" (saved) and not be a disciple? According to that scripture you can't.
To show the fruit means you must perform actions. You must be Christ like. How can you claim to have fruits if you do not show those fruits through actions?
"Will live [eternally] BECAUSE of me." NOT live eternally because they had communion! Communion is symbolic of what Christ did on the cross.
OK, I'll concede that one. Beleive me, I never as a Christian believed I needed to take communion to be saved.
OnceConvinced wrote:1Jo 3:6 wrote:
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
These ones seems to be saying you mustn't sin at all!
No. It's saying we, as Christians and Christ's representatives,
should not sin. The intro to 1 John says,
"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world" - 1 John 2:1.
The word "should" does not appear in that scripture at all. You seem to be adding that one in as an after thought. It is quite clearly saying "NO one who lives in him keeps on sinning". It's suggesting that if you are in him (saved) then you will not sin. This of course is an impossibility, but it doesn't remove the fact that is what it says. What we have here is either a biblical contradiction or dodgy translating.
OnceConvinced wrote:1Jo 3:9-10 wrote:
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
Once again, as the highlighted part shows, it can be boiled down to we will know them by their fruit.
Yes, but how does one see their fruits if they are not performing actions that show this fruit? God clearly expects Christians to demonstrate they show those fruits. A disciple who follows Christ would show these fruits. A christian who claims to be saved and who does nothing, would not show those fruits.
I'll quote some scriptures that speak of being saved. Not one mentions discipleship as a prerequisite for salvation.
And I could go and search for a whole lot of other scriptures that show that actions are required for salvation. But all we would be doing would be quoting contrary scriptures, many of which can be taken multiple different ways. What you seem to be suggesting is that it's possible to be a pew sitting Christian who does nothing but talk and yet still be saved.
Luke 8:11-15 "This is the meaning of the parable:The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life's worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.
Note the bits I have bolded. These are the Christian who do not want to be a disciple of Christ. The pew-sitting variety of Christan. Perhaps you believe they are still saved?
John 5:39-40 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
Seems to be talking about the type of Christian who studies the bible a lot, but nothing much else. Notice that the "come to me" part is an action that must be taken. Just what do you think this action involves?
The above verse in John 5:39-40 speaks against the notion that following scriptures or teachings is what saves.
But doesn't necessarily cover discipleship. I suspect what he is condeming there are legalistic Christians.
John 12:47-50 "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Note my bolding. There is still judgement for those who do not accept his words (and keep them) To me he is putting importance on discipleship. His words that you must keep include lots of commands about what you should be doing.
As for most of the other scriptures, they are Paul's teachings, which don't really line up with Christ's. But I don't want to get into the whole debate about works vs faith and I am short on time at the moment and would need to search for more scriptures. But I don't believe it would get us anywhere because everyone has different interpretations of them.
I would certainly like to see what other Christians here agree with you that you don't need to be a disciple to ensure salvation. I suspect there won't be too many.
Then no one can be sure if they are saved if they do not know the correct amount of time they must be a disciple. Salvation then becomes arbitrary. We have no assurance, no hope, no peace.
Apparently not. But it's a comfortable delusion to be in.
Even though I accepted Christ as my savior and was saved, apparently, according to many Christians I was never saved to begin with. I have often pointed out to them the question "Well then how do you know you are truly saved?"
No doubt for you, you are confident in your salvation as I once was. Pray that you'll never lose your faith like I did.
The issue is whether the scriptures tell us universally that we must become disciples in order to be saved. And the scriptures do not support that idea. In fact, I challenge you to find one scripture that says one must become a disciple or follower as a requirement to be saved.
I have already quoted scriptures that show that actions are required and I have also pointed out that to show the fruits of the spirit one must act. You may interpret them differently. But then even Christians have different interpretations of the same stuff. Pointing out a few scriptures that say one thing or the other doesn't settle the argument. Things are rarely that black and white when it comes to the bible. However if other Christians would come in here and support you, then that would add support to your stance. But I doubt that will happen.
One can never know for certain whether repentence alone is enough. The only way any of us will no for sure is when we get to Judgement Day. I believe there will be many many Christians who believed they were saved who will not get in. That scripture in Matt 7 confirms that to me.
So these are exceptions in your view. I'm still waiting for you to give scripture that outlines what is the typical process for salvation. So far, it seems to be an assumption that one must be a disciple.
I believe I've given adequate scriptures. You however see those scriptures a different way.
Goose wrote:Right. So God doesn't need the person to become a disciple to earn their salvation. Even though they probably would become a disciple if they were a real believer. But becoming a disciple is not a requirement for salvation.
The way I see it is when we repent and we accept Christ as our savior we become his disciple then. We can then either choose to act or we can choose to sit on a pew. I guess the real question is, can you lose that salvation if you do not follow his teachings? That's the crux of the issue for me. Not so much as how do we get saved, but how do we ensure we stay saved. Even Paul recognised that he could fall.
If it's just about being saved, then yes, all it takes is repentence. But I still don't believe that you can coast along refusing to follow Christ's teachings. That is what results in the situations you quoted in the verses above about seeds.
Goose wrote:This is discussed in James ch 2 - the type of faith that saves. But again, it goes back to knowing them by their fruit. Agreeing to follow Jesus is the natural process of a new life in Christ, but it is not what saves.
Like I said, I see salvation as becoming Christ's disciple. If I then decide not to follow Christ, I can no longer be considered a disciple. Wouldn't you agree with that? would you still then maintain that person to be saved even though he is not a disciple of Christ?
The criminal would have become a loyal disciple because of the redemptive work Christ did on the cross and his new life in Christ.
By accepting Christ as his savior, he is agreeing to become a disciple.
But becoming a disciple, in and of itself, is not what saves.
I agree, but refusing to be a disciple afterwards, would result in your falling away from Christ, like in the example of the parable, thus allowing you to fall from Grace (as Paul admitted he could).
It should be a natural desire to follow Jesus' teachings for a new convert and external evidence that one is a Christian.
True. And if they cease to follow Christ's teachings?
