Is the Bible addressed to women?

[McCulloch]

The Bible was written and preserved to be read by men and women.

The apostle Paul seems to disagree.

The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

In fact, much of the Bible seems to have been written as it if were addressed to men only. In the ten commandments, men are commanded not to covet their neighbours' wives.

Question: Is the Bible addressed to women?

[jergarmar]

Question: Is the Bible addressed to women?

Ooh, this is a pretty interesting question.

In general I would say that the leaders in the church have historically been male. The ones who read the books of the Old Testament in the synagogues in the Old Testament were male, and the letters of Paul were often literally addressed to the male leaders of the city churches.

However, if the next step in the argument is that the Bible doesn't concern itself with women, or tries to belittle women, I would say that is pretty difficult to establish.

I mean, just as an example, Paul starts talking about submission concerning intimacy in marriage and says that "the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does..." Now if Paul really wanted to put women in their place would he have immediately followed it with, "...and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does."

On the question of the male being the "head of the family", that is probably the view of Paul. But certainly nowhere in the New Testament are women described as being the "property" of the male or anything (just to be clear, I am not saying that the original poster made this point).

[McCulloch]

However, if the next step in the argument is that the Bible doesn't concern itself with women, or tries to belittle women, I would say that is pretty difficult to establish.

I am not sure that I would take that next step either.

On the question of the male being the "head of the family", that is probably the view of Paul. But certainly nowhere in the New Testament are women described as being the "property" of the male or anything (just to be clear, I am not saying that the original poster made this point).

Thank you for not putting words into my mouth. When you narrow the focus to the New Testament, is that an implicit acknowledgment that the Bible is not consistent in its position on this issue?

[OpenedUp]

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But she will be restored through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
[1 Timothy 2:11-15]

[Confused]

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But she will be restored through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety
[1 Timothy 2:11-15]

LOL. There is so many things wrong with that post I don't think I could address it with a straight face.

[jergarmar]

Thank you for not putting words into my mouth. When you narrow the focus to the New Testament, is that an implicit acknowledgment that the Bible is not consistent in its position on this issue?

At first, I thought the discussion was being focused on the New Testament, especially Paul's letters and epistles.

When talking about the Old Testament, you're talking about a HUGE collection of books. Interestingly, some parts/books of the Old Testament seem more addressed to women than ANY letter of the New Testament.

I'll just focus on one good example (as it seems to me). Ruth, for example, is focused on two widowed women. Forgive me for quoting it here, but Ruth's mother-in-law Naomi says, "Do not call me Naomi; call me Mara, for the Almighty has dealt very bitterly with me. I went away full, and the LORD has brought me back empty. Why call me Naomi, when the LORD has testified against me and the Almighty has brought calamity upon me?" Even Boaz, who arguably is the "hero" of the tale, doesn't have many "lines" and the women have the "last word" as they talk to Naomi.

This is, of course, an extreme example. There are plenty of books just focused on the male kings of Israel. In general I guess we should define how a book is or isn't "addressed" to a female audience.

Answering OpenedUp (with 1 Timothy 2) that is indeed a difficult text. The only thing I'll add is that is points out that Eve was deceived... but elsewhere in the New Testament it is suggested that because of this Adam was MORE guilty than Eve. That is, Adam doesn't have the excuse that he was tricked: he deliberately ate the fruit.

[OpenedUp]

Answering OpenedUp (with 1 Timothy 2) that is indeed a difficult text. The only thing I'll add is that is points out that Eve was deceived... but elsewhere in the New Testament it is suggested that because of this Adam was MORE guilty than Eve. That is, Adam doesn't have the excuse that he was tricked: he deliberately ate the fruit.

That still doesn't change what 1 Timothy says

[joer]

The value, importance and worth of Women as demonstrated by Jesus.

We must look at Scripture critically trying to get the deepest understanding we can of God’s word. The historical conditions at the time. The attitudes of the cultures toward women, and the momentous actions taken by Jesus in his just treatment and interaction with women in the face of these cultural taboos. It is no small thing to take all these things into account when we consider the meaning and purpose of Jesus’ actions and teachings in regards to how they take place with the women who were the objects or recipients of these actions and teachings.

Mark and Matthew write these next two passages of the same occurrence. Remember according to the Catholic historical analysis of the writings in the NT in the NAB, Mark wrote his Gospel first then Matthew and Luke most likely with a copy of Mark’s gospel for reference amplified his writings with their accounts and perspectives of what took place in the Life of Jesus.

Mt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, "Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon."
23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, "Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us."
24 He said in reply, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But the woman came and did him homage, saying, "Lord, help me."
26 He said in reply, "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters."
28 Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour.

Mk7:24-30
24 From that place he went off to the district of Tyre. He entered a house and wanted no one to know about it, but he could not escape notice.
25 Soon a woman whose daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him. She came and fell at his feet.
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she begged him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first. For it is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
28 She replied and said to him, "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's scraps."
29 Then he said to her, "For saying this, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
30 When the woman went home, she found the child lying in bed and the demon gone.

In terms of the discussion of this thread, there are several important aspects as in regard to the treatment of women in that time. Notice how Mark is pretty straight forward. He doesn’t dress his account up a lot with an expression of his attitude. He just “tells it like it is”, so to speak. Matthew on the other hand, demonstrates a strong Jewish upbringing and attitude towards women, in verses 23-24. BUT that serves as an excellent contrast to Jesus’ grace and just consideration of women, his attitude towards women flys in the face of Jewish tradition, in the fact that He responds to this women with respect and grants her petition because of her intelligent sincere and faithful response.

So what is God’s message to us in this interaction?

Women are deserving of just consideration and their intelligent and sincere responses to life’s situations deserve recognition.

It’s such an important lesson!

In light of the mistreatment, repression and under appreciation of women’s input into solving the problems of the world, it’s MORE OF A MIRICLE that we have “ears that hear” and “eyes that see”, this important lesson Jesus left us on the VALUE of woman’s “genius”, as Pope John Paul II referred to it, than the actual healing of the woman’s daughter. That healing did exemplify the importance of listening to women!

These next excerpts are from Mt. and Lk on the same occurrence. We spoke a little of Matthew and Mark here’s a brief excerpt from the Vatican site on LUKE.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWJ.HTM
Throughout the gospel, Luke calls upon the Christian disciple to identify with the master Jesus, who is caring and tender toward the poor and lowly, the outcast, the sinner, and the afflicted, toward all those who recognize their dependence on God, but who is severe toward the proud and self-righteous, and particularly toward those who place their material wealth before the service of God and his people No gospel writer is more concerned than Luke with the mercy and compassion of Jesus. No gospel writer is more concerned with the role of the Spirit in the life of Jesus and the Christian disciple, with the importance of, or with Jesus' concern for women.

Because of these attributes of Luke, he might be said to be the Progressive or Liberal of his time. I would say of the NT writers he was the one that was most in touch with his feminine side. And it shows in the richness and content of his writing.

Mt 26:6-13
6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
7 a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, "Why this waste?
9 It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor."
10 Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, "Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
11 The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
12 In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
13 Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her."

Lk7:36-50
36 A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table.
37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment,
38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner."
40 Jesus said to him in reply, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Tell me, teacher," he said.
41 "Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days' wages and the other owed fifty.
42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon said in reply, "The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven." He said to him, "You have judged rightly."
44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered.
46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment.
47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little."
48 He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49 The others at table said to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
50 But he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Do you see how rich Luke’s version is compared to Matthews? Matthew being the devote Jew that he was may have had reservations about displaying a Master who would resort to lowering himself to the level of conversing, admiring and defending such a woman as this. He may have been embarrassed by the fact that Simon, a Pharisee (A Jewish person in a position of respect) was reprimanded as he was by Jesus. So Matthew portrayed him as a Leper. While Luke not being Jewish had no such reservations I believe gave a much more honest and detailed account of the incident.

Again the importance of Jesus’ actions while quite embarrassing to his Apostles are very important to us today in terms of respect of woman. Jesus so often taught that God was no respecter of weather a person was a man or a woman. And because of their cultural upbringing this must have been a very difficult thing for the Apostles to accept. As a matter of fact evidence indicates that they reverted back to their customs soon after Jesus’’ ascended into heaven.

Now this next short excerpt I find so very important. And it is significant in that as far as I know it only appears in Luke. It’s important because it’s the only indication of a possible scenario of a women’s type of Apostolic group like that indicated in the story I shared with my sister. Several things in the story are supported here by biblical text. I would be curious to see if in the formation of the current bible at the Council of Nicea similar texts where destroyed or discarded.

Lk8:1-3 very important
1 Afterward he journeyed from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. Accompanying him were the Twelve
2 and some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3 Joanna, the wife of Herod's steward Chuza, Susanna, and many others who provided for them out of their resources.

So we see as Jesus traveled with the apostles from town to town preaching and proclaiming the good news of God. THE WOMEN WERE WITH THEM possibly DOING THE SAME THING.. And you see three of the 12 women mentioned in the story here as well as MANY OTHERS (WOMEN) and you see as it said in the story that THEY SUPPORTED THEMSELVES.

This small obscure seldom referred to part of the bible that is perhaps the BIGGEST OUTRIGHT INDICATOR of a WOMEN’S CORP THAT traveled and WORKED WITH JESUS furthering the kingdom of heaven in the world.

And that’s not counting what the male dominated hierarchy of the Church left out!

Check out these next scriptures of Mark and Luke on another occurance.

Mk 5:25-34
25 There was a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years.
26 She had suffered greatly at the hands of many doctors and had spent all that she had. Yet she was not helped but only grew worse.
27 She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak.
28 She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured."
29 Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.
30 Jesus, aware at once that power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who has touched my clothes?"
31 But his disciples said to him, "You see how the crowd is pressing upon you, and yet you ask, 'Who touched me?'"
32 And he looked around to see who had done it.
33 The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace and be cured of your affliction."

Lk8:41-56
41 And a man named Jairus, an official of the synagogue, came forward. He fell at the feet of Jesus and begged him to come to his house,
42 because he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. As he went, the crowds almost crushed him.
43 And a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years, who (had spent her whole livelihood on doctors and) was unable to be cured by anyone,
44 came up behind him and touched the tassel on his cloak. Immediately her bleeding stopped.
45 Jesus then asked, "Who touched me?" While all were denying it, Peter said, "Master, the crowds are pushing and pressing in upon you."
46 But Jesus said, "Someone has touched me; for I know that power has gone out from me."
47 When the woman realized that she had not escaped notice, she came forward trembling. Falling down before him, she explained in the presence of all the people why she had touched him and how she had been healed immediately.
48 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you; go in peace."
49 While he was still speaking, someone from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer."
50 On hearing this, Jesus answered him, "Do not be afraid; just have faith and she will be saved."
51 When he arrived at the house he allowed no one to enter with him except Peter and John and James, and the child's father and mother.
52 All were weeping and mourning for her, when he said, "Do not weep any longer, for she is not dead, but sleeping."
53 And they ridiculed him, because they knew that she was dead.
54 But he took her by the hand and called to her, "Child, arise!"
55 Her breath returned and she immediately arose. He then directed that she should be given something to eat.
56 Her parents were astounded, and he instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

I like the complimenting honesty and detail that Mark and Luke provide on this woman of great faith. One thing that the church has failed to emphasize that DIDN”T escape the notice of Jesus was the tremendous FAITH the women followers have in Jesus. I think there is a great Charism in a woman’s faith that we as men cannot grasp. And it is something very powerful and very healing. And I believe this feminine aspect of God that women possess will be pivotal in healing the world of it’s terrible ills in the near future as women define, determine and contribute their gift to the world. As Pope John Paul II anticipated his letter:

“The present reflections, now at an end, have sought to recognize, within the "gift of God", what he, as Creator and Redeemer, entrusts to women, to every woman. In the Spirit of Christ, in fact, women can discover the entire meaning of their femininity and thus be disposed to making a "sincere gift of self" to others, thereby finding themselves.”

O.K. I’m running out of time. Let me do one more. This one many of us are familiar with.

Lk10:38-42
38 As they continued their journey he entered a village where a woman whose name was Martha welcomed him.
39 She had a sister named Mary (who) sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak.
40 Martha, burdened with much serving, came to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me."
41 The Lord said to her in reply, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things.
42 There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her."

Can you see how Christ emphasizes the importance of women’s self-determination…even among themselves?

Martha gets caught up in the male dominated definition of a woman’s role, like so many women of today do, and she’s upset because her sister Mary isn’t helping her in the kitchen and leaving all the work of waiting on people to Martha. Mary’s right up front next to Jesus knowing his Love (God type love) for her and with a sincere desire to hear his teaching. Jesus gently gives Martha and all of us today a little chiding because of our failure to value our spiritual advancement more than our work ethic. And to women to be tolerant of those women whose calling from God is to do more than is currently acceptable by the male dominated hierarchy of the Church.

I mean Gosh, it’s real clear to me, and I’m sure many others here of the Lucan persuasion, but can any of our traditional conservatives see it?

There’s much more in the NT that I believe validates today’s need of feminine expression and women’s efforts to take a more prominent role in the World and the Church. I’ll get to that in another post…God Willing.

God Bless and Guide all who read and participate in this thread. Amen.

And to my non-believer brothers and sisters, Good Night and Good Will to you all.

The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will

[OpenedUp]

The value, importance and worth of Women as demonstrated by Jesus.

We must look at Scripture critically trying to get the deepest understanding we can of God’s word. The historical conditions at the time. The attitudes of the cultures toward women, and the momentous actions taken by Jesus in his just treatment and interaction with women in the face of these cultural taboos. It is no small thing to take all these things into account when we consider the meaning and purpose of Jesus’ actions and teachings in regards to how they take place with the women who were the objects or recipients of these actions and teachings.

Mark and Matthew write these next two passages of the same occurrence. Remember according to the Catholic historical analysis of the writings in the NT in the NAB, Mark wrote his Gospel first then Matthew and Luke most likely with a copy of Mark’s gospel for reference amplified his writings with their accounts and perspectives of what took place in the Life of Jesus.

Mt 15:21-28
21 Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, "Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon."
23 But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, "Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us."
24 He said in reply, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
25 But the woman came and did him homage, saying, "Lord, help me."
26 He said in reply, "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
27 She said, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters."
28 Then Jesus said to her in reply, "O woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour.

Mk7:24-30
24 From that place he went off to the district of Tyre. He entered a house and wanted no one to know about it, but he could not escape notice.
25 Soon a woman whose daughter had an unclean spirit heard about him. She came and fell at his feet.
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophoenician by birth, and she begged him to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27 He said to her, "Let the children be fed first. For it is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs."
28 She replied and said to him, "Lord, even the dogs under the table eat the children's scraps."
29 Then he said to her, "For saying this, you may go. The demon has gone out of your daughter."
30 When the woman went home, she found the child lying in bed and the demon gone.

In terms of the discussion of this thread, there are several important aspects as in regard to the treatment of women in that time. Notice how Mark is pretty straight forward. He doesn’t dress his account up a lot with an expression of his attitude. He just “tells it like it is”, so to speak. Matthew on the other hand, demonstrates a strong Jewish upbringing and attitude towards women, in verses 23-24. BUT that serves as an excellent contrast to Jesus’ grace and just consideration of women, his attitude towards women flys in the face of Jewish tradition, in the fact that He responds to this women with respect and grants her petition because of her intelligent sincere and faithful response.

So what is God’s message to us in this interaction?

Women are deserving of just consideration and their intelligent and sincere responses to life’s situations deserve recognition.

It’s such an important lesson!

In light of the mistreatment, repression and under appreciation of women’s input into solving the problems of the world, it’s MORE OF A MIRICLE that we have “ears that hear” and “eyes that see”, this important lesson Jesus left us on the VALUE of woman’s “genius”, as Pope John Paul II referred to it, than the actual healing of the woman’s daughter. That healing did exemplify the importance of listening to women!

These next excerpts are from Mt. and Lk on the same occurrence. We spoke a little of Matthew and Mark here’s a brief excerpt from the Vatican site on LUKE.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PWJ.HTM
Throughout the gospel, Luke calls upon the Christian disciple to identify with the master Jesus, who is caring and tender toward the poor and lowly, the outcast, the sinner, and the afflicted, toward all those who recognize their dependence on God, but who is severe toward the proud and self-righteous, and particularly toward those who place their material wealth before the service of God and his people No gospel writer is more concerned than Luke with the mercy and compassion of Jesus. No gospel writer is more concerned with the role of the Spirit in the life of Jesus and the Christian disciple, with the importance of, or with Jesus' concern for women.

Because of these attributes of Luke, he might be said to be the Progressive or Liberal of his time. I would say of the NT writers he was the one that was most in touch with his feminine side. And it shows in the richness and content of his writing.

Mt 26:6-13
6 Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper,
7 a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table.
8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, "Why this waste?
9 It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor."
10 Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, "Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me.
11 The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me.
12 In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.
13 Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her."

Lk7:36-50
36 A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee's house and reclined at table.
37 Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment,
38 she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment.
39 When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner."
40 Jesus said to him in reply, "Simon, I have something to say to you." "Tell me, teacher," he said.
41 "Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days' wages and the other owed fifty.
42 Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?"
43 Simon said in reply, "The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven." He said to him, "You have judged rightly."
44 Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45 You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered.
46 You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment.
47 So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little."
48 He said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49 The others at table said to themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"
50 But he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Do you see how rich Luke’s version is compared to Matthews? Matthew being the devote Jew that he was may have had reservations about displaying a Master who would resort to lowering himself to the level of conversing, admiring and defending such a woman as this. He may have been embarrassed by the fact that Simon, a Pharisee (A Jewish person in a position of respect) was reprimanded as he was by Jesus. So Matthew portrayed him as a Leper. While Luke not being Jewish had no such reservations I believe gave a much more honest and detailed account of the incident.

Again the importance of Jesus’ actions while quite embarrassing to his Apostles are very important to us today in terms of respect of woman. Jesus so often taught that God was no respecter of weather a person was a man or a woman. And because of their cultural upbringing this must have been a very difficult thing for the Apostles to accept. As a matter of fact evidence indicates that they reverted back to their customs soon after Jesus’’ ascended into heaven.

Now this next short excerpt I find so very important. And it is significant in that as far as I know it only appears in Luke. It’s important because it’s the only indication of a possible scenario of a women’s type of Apostolic group like that indicated in the story I shared with my sister. Several things in the story are supported here by biblical text. I would be curious to see if in the formation of the current bible at the Council of Nicea similar texts where destroyed or discarded.

Lk8:1-3 very important
1 Afterward he journeyed from one town and village to another, preaching and proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. Accompanying him were the Twelve
2 and some women who had been cured of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out,
3 Joanna, the wife of Herod's steward Chuza, Susanna, and many others who provided for them out of their resources.

So we see as Jesus traveled with the apostles from town to town preaching and proclaiming the good news of God. THE WOMEN WERE WITH THEM possibly DOING THE SAME THING.. And you see three of the 12 women mentioned in the story here as well as MANY OTHERS (WOMEN) and you see as it said in the story that THEY SUPPORTED THEMSELVES.

This small obscure seldom referred to part of the bible that is perhaps the BIGGEST OUTRIGHT INDICATOR of a WOMEN’S CORP THAT traveled and WORKED WITH JESUS furthering the kingdom of heaven in the world.

And that’s not counting what the male dominated hierarchy of the Church left out!

Check out these next scriptures of Mark and Luke on another occurance.

Mk 5:25-34
25 There was a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years.
26 She had suffered greatly at the hands of many doctors and had spent all that she had. Yet she was not helped but only grew worse.
27 She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak.
28 She said, "If I but touch his clothes, I shall be cured."
29 Immediately her flow of blood dried up. She felt in her body that she was healed of her affliction.
30 Jesus, aware at once that power had gone out from him, turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who has touched my clothes?"
31 But his disciples said to him, "You see how the crowd is pressing upon you, and yet you ask, 'Who touched me?'"
32 And he looked around to see who had done it.
33 The woman, realizing what had happened to her, approached in fear and trembling. She fell down before Jesus and told him the whole truth.
34 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you. Go in peace and be cured of your affliction."

Lk8:41-56
41 And a man named Jairus, an official of the synagogue, came forward. He fell at the feet of Jesus and begged him to come to his house,
42 because he had an only daughter, about twelve years old, and she was dying. As he went, the crowds almost crushed him.
43 And a woman afflicted with hemorrhages for twelve years, who (had spent her whole livelihood on doctors and) was unable to be cured by anyone,
44 came up behind him and touched the tassel on his cloak. Immediately her bleeding stopped.
45 Jesus then asked, "Who touched me?" While all were denying it, Peter said, "Master, the crowds are pushing and pressing in upon you."
46 But Jesus said, "Someone has touched me; for I know that power has gone out from me."
47 When the woman realized that she had not escaped notice, she came forward trembling. Falling down before him, she explained in the presence of all the people why she had touched him and how she had been healed immediately.
48 He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has saved you; go in peace."
49 While he was still speaking, someone from the synagogue official's house arrived and said, "Your daughter is dead; do not trouble the teacher any longer."
50 On hearing this, Jesus answered him, "Do not be afraid; just have faith and she will be saved."
51 When he arrived at the house he allowed no one to enter with him except Peter and John and James, and the child's father and mother.
52 All were weeping and mourning for her, when he said, "Do not weep any longer, for she is not dead, but sleeping."
53 And they ridiculed him, because they knew that she was dead.
54 But he took her by the hand and called to her, "Child, arise!"
55 Her breath returned and she immediately arose. He then directed that she should be given something to eat.
56 Her parents were astounded, and he instructed them to tell no one what had happened.

I like the complimenting honesty and detail that Mark and Luke provide on this woman of great faith. One thing that the church has failed to emphasize that DIDN”T escape the notice of Jesus was the tremendous FAITH the women followers have in Jesus. I think there is a great Charism in a woman’s faith that we as men cannot grasp. And it is something very powerful and very healing. And I believe this feminine aspect of God that women possess will be pivotal in healing the world of it’s terrible ills in the near future as women define, determine and contribute their gift to the world. As Pope John Paul II anticipated his letter:

“The present reflections, now at an end, have sought to recognize, within the "gift of God", what he, as Creator and Redeemer, entrusts to women, to every woman. In the Spirit of Christ, in fact, women can discover the entire meaning of their femininity and thus be disposed to making a "sincere gift of self" to others, thereby finding themselves.”

O.K. I’m running out of time. Let me do one more. This one many of us are familiar with.

Lk10:38-42
38 As they continued their journey he entered a village where a woman whose name was Martha welcomed him.
39 She had a sister named Mary (who) sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak.
40 Martha, burdened with much serving, came to him and said, "Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me."
41 The Lord said to her in reply, "Martha, Martha, you are anxious and worried about many things.
42 There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her."

Can you see how Christ emphasizes the importance of women’s self-determination…even among themselves?

Martha gets caught up in the male dominated definition of a woman’s role, like so many women of today do, and she’s upset because her sister Mary isn’t helping her in the kitchen and leaving all the work of waiting on people to Martha. Mary’s right up front next to Jesus knowing his Love (God type love) for her and with a sincere desire to hear his teaching. Jesus gently gives Martha and all of us today a little chiding because of our failure to value our spiritual advancement more than our work ethic. And to women to be tolerant of those women whose calling from God is to do more than is currently acceptable by the male dominated hierarchy of the Church.

I mean Gosh, it’s real clear to me, and I’m sure many others here of the Lucan persuasion, but can any of our traditional conservatives see it?

There’s much more in the NT that I believe validates today’s need of feminine expression and women’s efforts to take a more prominent role in the World and the Church. I’ll get to that in another post…God Willing.

God Bless and Guide all who read and participate in this thread. Amen.

And to my non-believer brothers and sisters, Good Night and Good Will to you all.

The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will

I wonder, how many female preachers do you know?

I've always wondered why there aren't many (if any)

[joer]

I know a lot of women on the internet who openly talk about the bible, churches, the teachings of Christ, the attitude of men toward women, Women priests and preachers. I've seen them on TV. I've been to two masses presided over women priests. One a mother and a grandmother, another gay with a life long partner. Another an Anglican woman priest. Very active in leading her congregation and a leader in her church and an exceptional writer and theologian.

In El Salvador last summer I was impressed by the women leaders of the communities taking the lead in building and maintaining the Faith in many communities where priests are not available or are not amenable to way the community wishes to celebrate their Faith in God. For the most part the men in these communities follow the women's lead. And contribute to the growth and well being and education of the young in the community congregations of many faiths of 10 to 14 people at a time come from many parts of the world to witness how these communities work at lifting themselves up by the bootstraps. They have been called Liberation Theologists. But they just see themselves as servants of God doing God's work here on earth.

Many Many woman who are active in My church which is the largest Parish north of San Francisco between there and the Oregon Border. Woman who work for peace and are very active at it. Women who visit prisoners in prisons. Women who help the Poor. run the ministries and the Food Bank. They have some men helping them but it's mostly women.
It's the women who run the day to day functioning of our churches.

Oh Yes, we also have a Parish Priest, a symbolic head and leader of the church who does his best to support and stay out of the way of the women's work.

How about you Opened Up. Know any religious women?

[OpenedUp]

I know a lot of women on the internet who openly talk about the bible, churches, the teachings of Christ, the attitude of men toward women, Women priests and preachers. I've seen them on TV. I've been to two masses presided over women priests. One a mother and a grandmother, another gay with a life long partner. Another an Anglican woman priest. Very active in leading her congregation and a leader in her church and an exceptional writer and theologian.

In El Salvador last summer I was impressed by the women leaders of the communities taking the lead in building and maintaining the Faith in many communities where priests are not available or are not amenable to way the community wishes to celebrate their Faith in God. For the most part the men in these communities follow the women's lead. And contribute to the growth and well being and education of the young in the community congregations of many faiths of 10 to 14 people at a time come from many parts of the world to witness how these communities work at lifting themselves up by the bootstraps. They have been called Liberation Theologists. But they just see themselves as servants of God doing God's work here on earth.

Many Many woman who are active in My church which is the largest Parish north of San Francisco between there and the Oregon Border. Woman who work for peace and are very active at it. Women who visit prisoners in prisons. Women who help the Poor. run the ministries and the Food Bank. They have some men helping them but it's mostly women.
It's the women who run the day to day functioning of our churches.

Oh Yes, we also have a Parish Priest, a symbolic head and leader of the church who does his best to support and stay out of the way of the women's work.

How about you Opened Up. Know any religious women?

I didn't say there were no religious women. I said there are not many women priests. Running the day-to-day of the church seems to be the low end of the spectrum for being leaders of the church.

Of all the churches I went to in my younger years, not one of them had a female priest or preacher or anything. In fact, I remmeber in two of them females weren't allowed to teach Bible study after children got into the sixth grade- after that it was a man's job.

Then again, that's better than not being allowed to speak in church at all.