The Doctrine of Hell

[Jester]

It came up in another topic that Christians are varied in our descriptions of Hell. I thought that this would make an excellent point of discussion. For the sake of clarity, here are the questions for discussion.

1. How literal are the descriptions of Hell in the Bible?
(a). If they are basically literal, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God as Christianity describes it?
(b). If they are basically figurative, what is their purpose in being included in the Bible and, again, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God?

2. What is the nature of Hell?/What makes Hell so bad? (i.e. physical torture, psychological torture, separation from God, etc.)

3. How does one avoid hell? That is to say, how does one receive forgiveness from God, and why is that necessary for forgiveness?

[MagusYanam]

1. How literal are the descriptions of Hell in the Bible?
(a). If they are basically literal, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God as Christianity describes it?
(b). If they are basically figurative, what is their purpose in being included in the Bible and, again, what can we infer about the nature of Heaven, Hell and God?

2. What is the nature of Hell?/What makes Hell so bad? (i.e. physical torture, psychological torture, separation from God, etc.)

3. How does one avoid hell? That is to say, how does one receive forgiveness from God, and why is that necessary for forgiveness?

I think that the images of Gehenna in the Bible are generally illustrative - the implication is that isolation from God is one of the most terrible torments a human soul can be forced to endure, more so than burning or poison or injury of the flesh. However, the theological background of the original concept of Gehenna (not Dante's Inferno, mind you) is that it is a place of contrition and purification: the reference is to a garbage pit outside Jerusalem where the trash is burned away, and where the fires never go out. In the contemporary theology of Jesus, Gehenna was a sort of purgatory (not a place where souls are punished eternally, but still a real state of the soul you do want to avoid). Another image that is sometimes used is the 'refiner's fire' of Isaiah, where we are refined to pure silver and gold.

I tend to doubt these 'dreams and visions' Easyrider referenced, since they seem rather un-Biblical in nature, and there are explanations for them other than divine intervention. Let's stick to Scripture, shall we?

As to how one would avoid Hell (Gehenna), the standard answer would be accepting Jesus as Saviour. Purification by Christ's blood would seem preferable to purification by fire and torment.

[Jester]

I take them as being literal. I've seen quite a few individuals testify of dreams and visions and being "taken to hell" for a visit by the Lord or by angels, and it all comes back the same: fire, torment, extremely frightening and powerful demons, complete loss of hope, screams of agony, a foul stench, having a hard time even breathing due to the excessive heat, etc.

That is an interesting point; I hadn't given much attention to it as of late. I do believe that there is something to this.

However, I’m still not sure that we should take these scriptures as being literal. First, as Akillies points out, there would be a few obvious contradictions in the scriptures about Hell if the were meant literally. Another reason is the fact that physical torture doesn’t seem to be a very Godly punishment. It seems that spiritual suffering makes more sense as a consequence of rejecting God.

There's a book on what I described: 23 Minutes in Hell:

Thanks, I’m really interested in this one. I’ll look over this one.

Whether hell is an excessive punishment or not, it appears that's what God does. I think if we all could see it there wouldn't be any non-believers left, or certainly very few. Why even take a chance?

I understand what you are saying, and am definitely not interested in going to Hell myself. I don’t personally like the idea of this as a motivator for belief, however. If I only serve God because I’m afraid of being tortured, then I’m really just looking out for myself. The same thing goes for trying to tell people to serve God if they don’t want to go to Hell. I’m telling them to look out for themselves. I feel that the Bible wants us to serve God because we love him. This seems to fit in better with the idea that Hell is what naturally happens to people when they are completely outside of God’s presence than it does with some concept of God-sanctioned torment.

[byofrcs]

Jesus on Hell

In Luke 16, Jesus Christ gives a frightening picture of hell:
22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good
things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

In Matthew 25:41, Jesus says: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting FIRE,. . ."

Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-47,

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

WHAT JESUS CHRIST SAYS ABOUT HELL: "fire" Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41 "everlasting fire" Matt 18:8, 25:41 "eternal damnation" Mark 3:29 "hell fire" Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47 "damnation" Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47 "damnation of hell" Matt 23:33 "resurrection of damnation" John 5:29 "furnace of fire" Matt 13:42, 50 "the fire that never shall be quenched" Mark 9:43, 45 "the fire is not quenched" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 "Where their worm dieth not" Mark 9:44, 46, 48 "wailing and gnashing of teeth" Matt 13:42, 50 "weeping and gnashing of teeth" Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30 "torments" Luke 16:23 "tormented in this flame" Luke 16:24 "place of torment" Luke 16:28 "outer darkness" Matt 8:12, 22:13 "everlasting punishment" Matt 25:46

Jesus Christ gave a solemn warning in Matthew 7:21-23

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. . . MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Jesus also said, "Do not fear those who can kill the body, but fear Him who can kill the body and soul in hell."

http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/hellis.htm

Luke - written by whom ? No one really knows. Has much in common with Mark and Matthew. Written when ? No one really knows. Ranges from 60 onwards.

Mark - no one knows who wrote that. Some guesswork says Mark the Evangelist. Purported to be written around 70 AD (near Mark's death ?)

Matthew - written by whom ?. Again no one really knows. Only a third of its verses are unique - the rest in common with the Mark and Luke.

Though you quote many verses they are plagiarised from each other. No one knows who wrote them nor when. Written many years after they provide a good backstory of what the gossip was or what was rumoured to have happened.

Such a pity that what purports to be the world's most powerful religion had neither a Roman nor Greek scribe to record what happened when it happened, to record what was said when it was said. We're talking the King of Kings here, the Son of God.

You would have through that the Christ himself would have been asked a scribe to record his message so that all people for all time (after all he knew he was going to die young on the Cross) could understand.

But nothing. Only gossip and after-the-event stories. Retold and retold losing clarity and focus from the original message but twisted to the ends of the new Church. No, this is not "Jesus on Hell" but the original marketing department of the new Church sexing-up Hell to sell product.

I can understand the Pagan Romans buying this but guys, please, we're post-Enlightenment: give us something a little bit more substantial !.

[Easyrider]

Luke - written by whom ? No one really knows. Has much in common with Mark and Matthew. Written when ? No one really knows. Ranges from 60 onwards.

Mark - no one knows who wrote that. Some guesswork says Mark the Evangelist. Purported to be written around 70 AD (near Mark's death ?)

Matthew - written by whom ?. Again no one really knows.

Evidently you've never reviewed the writings of the early church fathers, or you wouldn't say, "no one really knows."

Only a third of its verses are unique - the rest in common with the Mark and Luke.

Why aren't those other 2/3rds "word for word" then? Are you arguing that multiple people can't witness and write about the same events / quotes?

Though you quote many verses they are plagiarised from each other.

Absolutely no foundation for that reach. Got some evidence to back that up - that they are specifically "plagiarized"?

Such a pity that what purports to be the world's most powerful religion had neither a Roman nor Greek scribe to record what happened when it happened, to record what was said when it was said. We're talking the King of Kings here, the Son of God.

Mark was Peter's scribe, and Jeremiah had one also. There's no evidence a Greek or Roman scribe would be any more accurate or reliable than a Jewish scribe, etc.

Only gossip and after-the-event stories. Retold and retold losing clarity and focus from the original message but twisted to the ends of the new Church. No, this is not "Jesus on Hell" but the original marketing department of the new Church sexing-up Hell to sell product.

You'll have much better credibility on this if you can document the accounts as mere gossip, twisted, etc. Got any?

I can understand the Pagan Romans buying this but guys, please, we're post-Enlightenment: give us something a little bit more substantial !.

Intellect and wisdom are not always the same thing. Something to think about.

[Jester]

Luke - written by whom ? No one really knows. Has much in common with Mark and Matthew. Written when ? No one really knows. Ranges from 60 onwards.

Mark - no one knows who wrote that. Some guesswork says Mark the Evangelist. Purported to be written around 70 AD (near Mark's death ?)

Matthew - written by whom ?. Again no one really knows. Only a third of its verses are unique - the rest in common with the Mark and Luke.

Though you quote many verses they are plagiarised from each other. No one knows who wrote them nor when. Written many years after they provide a good backstory of what the gossip was or what was rumoured to have happened.

Such a pity that what purports to be the world's most powerful religion had neither a Roman nor Greek scribe to record what happened when it happened, to record what was said when it was said. We're talking the King of Kings here, the Son of God.

You would have through that the Christ himself would have been asked a scribe to record his message so that all people for all time (after all he knew he was going to die young on the Cross) could understand.

But nothing. Only gossip and after-the-event stories. Retold and retold losing clarity and focus from the original message but twisted to the ends of the new Church. No, this is not "Jesus on Hell" but the original marketing department of the new Church sexing-up Hell to sell product.

I can understand the Pagan Romans buying this but guys, please, we're post-Enlightenment: give us something a little bit more substantial !.

While I understand that there have already been a couple of comments that have veered in that direction, we should remember that this is the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum, rather than the Apologetics forum. The issue of the validity of these scriptures is extremely important (vital, really), but it does not happen to be the purpose of this discussion. We are discussing what the Bible teaches on this issue, not whether or not those teachings are correct.

To that end, feel free to offer your comments about what you believe hell is, according to the Bible, and what you believe that says about God.

[Jester]

Luke - written by whom ? No one really knows. Has much in common with Mark and Matthew. Written when ? No one really knows. Ranges from 60 onwards.

Mark - no one knows who wrote that. Some guesswork says Mark the Evangelist. Purported to be written around 70 AD (near Mark's death ?)

Matthew - written by whom ?. Again no one really knows.

Evidently you've never reviewed the writings of the early church fathers, or you wouldn't say, "no one really knows."

...

The same comments above to byofrcs apply. I know that we're passionate about the apologetics issue (I certainly am), but we have a whole forum for that. Personally, I'd love to see some more discussion on the Biblical view of Hell.

[OnceConvinced]

Jesus on Hell

In Luke 16, Jesus Christ gives a frightening picture of hell:
22 . . . the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. (Luke 16:22-28)

Can you really take this literally? For one thing if some one is engulfed in flames, burning, they would hardly be able to hold an intelligable conversation. They would be screaming and wailing and gnashing their teeth.

Also why would he want a drop of water for his tongue if his entire body was burning? What good would that do?

Also, why would there be Christians standing there watching it? Would they get a kick out of seeing their loved ones suffering?

The hell described here does not suggest a lake of fire or being burnt. Separation from God? Maybe.

In Matthew 13:42, Jesus says: "And shall cast them into a FURNACE OF FIRE: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Therefore not talking and holding conversations with people on the outside.

[OnceConvinced]

I take them as being literal. I've seen quite a few individuals testify of dreams and visions and being "taken to hell" for a visit by the Lord or by angels, and it all comes back the same: fire, torment, extremely frightening and powerful demons, complete loss of hope, screams of agony, a foul stench, having a hard time even breathing due to the excessive heat, etc. One individual said there were snakes, scorpions, spiders, and all kinds of nasty crawling things all over the place, and they were constantly biting, etc. After one Christian experienced that "visit" his wife found him curled up on the living room floor screaming, and it took him several weeks to calm down.

All contradictory accounts, that can't all possibly be true.

Dreams are as a rule, not real, purely something conjured up by the subconscious that represents something in life. It's likely that those who fear hell are going to have nightmares about it. And it's also likely that if you hear of such stories from other people that you will have similar dreams.

Dreams can have a powerful effect on you, but you can't take them seriously.

[Easyrider]

I take them as being literal. I've seen quite a few individuals testify of dreams and visions and being "taken to hell" for a visit by the Lord or by angels, and it all comes back the same: fire, torment, extremely frightening and powerful demons, complete loss of hope, screams of agony, a foul stench, having a hard time even breathing due to the excessive heat, etc. One individual said there were snakes, scorpions, spiders, and all kinds of nasty crawling things all over the place, and they were constantly biting, etc. After one Christian experienced that "visit" his wife found him curled up on the living room floor screaming, and it took him several weeks to calm down.

All contradictory accounts, that can't all possibly be true.

What's contradictory?

Dreams are as a rule, not real, purely something conjured up by the subconscious that represents something in life. It's likely that those who fear hell are going to have nightmares about it. And it's also likely that if you hear of such stories from other people that you will have similar dreams.

Dreams can have a powerful effect on you, but you can't take them seriously.

You can if they're from God. Get one from God and you'll know you've experienced something entirely profound. Very vivid. And then you'll always wake up at the end of it. Often he'll give you the interpretation.

[byofrcs]

I take them as being literal. I've seen quite a few individuals testify of dreams and visions and being "taken to hell" for a visit by the Lord or by angels, and it all comes back the same: fire, torment, extremely frightening and powerful demons, complete loss of hope, screams of agony, a foul stench, having a hard time even breathing due to the excessive heat, etc. One individual said there were snakes, scorpions, spiders, and all kinds of nasty crawling things all over the place, and they were constantly biting, etc. After one Christian experienced that "visit" his wife found him curled up on the living room floor screaming, and it took him several weeks to calm down.

All contradictory accounts, that can't all possibly be true.

What's contradictory?

Dreams are as a rule, not real, purely something conjured up by the subconscious that represents something in life. It's likely that those who fear hell are going to have nightmares about it. And it's also likely that if you hear of such stories from other people that you will have similar dreams.

Dreams can have a powerful effect on you, but you can't take them seriously.

You can if they're from God. Get one from God and you'll know you've experienced something entirely profound. Very vivid. And then you'll always wake up at the end of it. Often he'll give you the interpretation.

I would be impressed if you could work out the difference between the dreams from your God from those from Satan for even Satan can disguise himself as an Angel of Light.