Is Christmas 'pagan'?

[historia]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

[SiNcE_1985]

On the contrary, whether Christmas has pagan roots or not -- the question I'm asking in this thread -- is one that is regularly taken up by atheist critics of Christianity.

Oh, I wasn't aware of atheists sitting around giving a hoot about whether Christmas is pagan.

News to me.

[historia]

I refer to Christmas as the sum of all modern day activities and rituals specific to the period leading up to, including and following of the winter soltace.

I want to come back to the links you provided later, as that is the bulk of what I'm interested in discussing.

But I first wanted to ask you about this definition of "Christmas," as it took me by surprise.

Surely you don't mean that all activities in late December should be counted as part of Christmas. Hanukkah, for example, starts on December 25 this year, but that's not part of "Christmas" in your mind, is it?

[JehovahsWitness]

Surely you don't mean that all activities in late December should be counted as part of Christmas. Hanukkah, for example, starts on December 25 this year, but that's not part of "Christmas" in your mind, is it?

Okay

CHRISTMAS "all religious activities, rituals and traditions associated with the period leading up to, including and following of the winter solstice which cannot be attributed to a direct and explicit command from Christ as recorded in the bible canon, but are undertaken to celebrate or commemorate the birth and /or life of Christ.

I think that's a better definition but I can always tweak it...So I would not consider, Hanukkah and other religious celebrations to be a part of "Christmas" but the name "Christmas" is pagan as earlier defined.


JW

[onewithhim]

From a recent blog post at a website called the History Cooperative:

The origins of Christmas can be traced back to the ancient Roman and Norse civilizations. In fact, 25th December was not even Jesus’ date of birth. The early Christians appropriated what was originally a pagan holiday because it was convenient. Before that, the people of ancient Europe had celebrations of the pagan god Saturn or even Odin at the end of December to mark the shortest day of the year. Indeed, many of the Christmas traditions we have today come from these ancient festivals. Examples of this include kissing under the mistletoe and decorating trees.

You can find claims similar to this all over the Internet, especially this time of year.

Questions for debate:

(1) Is Christmas 'pagan'?

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas?

(1) Is Christmas pagan? Yes.

(2) Should Christians celebrate Christmas? No.

The Bible is quite clear when condemning situations that displease our God and Father. "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial [Satan], or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? ...'Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,' says the Lord. 'And do not touch what is unclean; and I will welcome you.'" (2 Corinthians 6:14-17, NASB)

The traditions of Christmas are pagan and are part of the "darkness." Jesus said that he was "the Truth," (John 14:6) so would he be pleased with associating with lies? The celebration is founded upon lies and pagan, Godless traditions. There is no foothold there for truth-seeking individuals.

[historia]

CHRISTMAS "all religious activities, rituals and traditions associated with the period leading up to, including and following of the winter solstice which cannot be attributed to a direct and explicit command from Christ as recorded in the bible canon, but are undertaken to celebrate or commemorate the birth and /or life of Christ.

I think that's a better definition but I can always tweak it.

I do too. Thank you for providing that working definition.

but the name "Christmas" is pagan as earlier defined.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I understand you think the holiday has pagan roots, but how is the name itself pagan?

...what historical evidence do you think supports that conclusion?

See links below...

Do the festivities associated with Christmas have their origins in pagan religious celebrations? tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p815406

Are there any links between pagan religious festivals and date 25th December
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 26#p897426

What are the origins of the Christmas customs? (lights, logs festivities ect)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p897432

So, what you have listed in those links are various authors claiming Christmas has pagan origins. But what's not present in any of those quotes, as far as I can tell, is any relevant historical evidence to substantiate these claims.

As we dig into this issue, what you're going to find is that these claims that Christmas is pagan go back to a handful of authors in the 18th and 19th Centuries who were speculating about the origin of Christmas and various folk customs now associated with it. Later authors, like the ones you have quoted above, then repeated these speculations as if they were just established facts.

But we only need to scratch the surface of these claims to watch most of them fall apart. Consider the example Difflugia gave above as illustrative of this:

A number of Christmas traditions are similar to traditions of pagan holidays, but again, I think the evidence is pretty much circumstantial. Gift-giving is usually the go-to as being borrowed from Saturnalia, but there are plausible reasons for them being more-or-less independent (the Magi bearing gifts, Christian charity).

Difflugia is right here to note that people often point out that both Christmas and the ancient Roman festival of Saturnalia have been associated with gift giving. From that alone they then conclude that Christians must have adopted this custom into Christmas from Saturnalia.

The biggest problem with this theory, though, is that the custom of giving gifts at Christmas is a relatively recent phenomenon. For most of history, Christmas was not associated with gift giving. In the 1300s, Christians did start a tradition of giving alms to the poor at Christmas. And in the 1500s, in northern Europe, there developed a custom of parents giving their children gifts on St. Nicholas Day, which is December 6. In the 19th and especially 20th Centuries, those St. Nicholas Day customs got folded into Christmas, which is why Christmas is now associated with gift giving.

But that all happened over a thousand years after Christians first started observing the feast of the Nativity (what we call Christmas) and people in Europe stopped celebrating Saturnalia. So, clearly, this rather recent custom that we today associate with Christmas is not borrowed from Saturnalia.

[JehovahsWitness]

Do the festivities associated with Christmas have their origins in pagan religious celebrations? tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 06#p815406

Are there any links between pagan religious festivals and date 25th December
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 26#p897426

What are the origins of the Christmas customs? (lights, logs festivities ect)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 32#p897432

So, what you have listed in those links are various authors claiming Christmas has pagan origins. But what's not present in any of those quotes, as far as I can tell, is any relevant historical evidence to substantiate these claims.

So by evidence you mean actual documents from the period testifying a particular ceremony or archaeological artifacts picturing the ancient use of fern trees or yule logs for example .... that kind of thing ? In short the physical evidence upon which it is presumed an enclyclpedia or relevant authority presents its conclusions ?


So for example taking triggers reference ...

"December 25 was already a major festival in the pagan Roman world, the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti, or Birthday of the Unconquered Sun, a feast honoring the renewal of the sun at the winter solstice. Pagan celebrations on December 25 had included feasting, dancing, lighting bonfires, decorating homes with greens, and giving gifts. So when this became a Christian [?] festival, the [pagan] customs continued - p. 414, Vol. 4, Encyclopedia International, Grolier, Inc., 1966.

You are asking to see the historical manuscripts featuring / explaining the Dies Natalis Solis Invicti or archaeological artifacts and other physical evidence that the various activites mentioned in the Encyclopedia International's entry are actual historical facts. Is that what you are asking?

[SiNcE_1985]

Because I view somthing as pagan if any features are of that thing have any links whatsover with non-christian factors. And I refer to Christmas as the sum of all modern day activities and rituals specific to the period leading up to, including and following of the winter soltace.

Yeah, but the problem with that is; there are many things that JW's continue to do that has pagan origins...yet they still do it...and if they were consistent and non-hypocritcal in their thinking and actions, they WOULDN'T continue doing those things other things.

They pick on Holidays and act so righteous when it comes to that, yet they continue to do those other things...text book example of hypocrisy.

[JehovahsWitness]

... how is the name [Christmas] itself pagan?

Well if we take "pagan" to mean that which is of a non-Christian / non-biblically judaic origin then a mass / ritual to celebrate the birth of Christ would be, in our opinion, pagan. Its a pagan name like Janus or Molech... or Easter.

[onewithhim]

Because I view somthing as pagan if any features are of that thing have any links whatsover with non-christian factors. And I refer to Christmas as the sum of all modern day activities and rituals specific to the period leading up to, including and following of the winter soltace.

Yeah, but the problem with that is; there are many things that JW's continue to do that has pagan origins...yet they still do it...and if they were consistent and non-hypocritcal in their thinking and actions, they WOULDN'T continue doing those things other things.

They pick on Holidays and act so righteous when it comes to that, yet they continue to do those other things...text book example of hypocrisy.

What "things"?

Wearing wedding rings? It's done for a protection, so that others will know the marital status and avoid problems that may ensue.

[SiNcE_1985]

What "things"?

Well, JW's still have calendars which are filled with pagan names of the months and days of the week.

Let's start there.

I'm surprised you guys don't have your own calendars as you do your own Bibles with the New World's Translation.

You still use those pagan names, when those names (months of the year, days of the week) are named after pagan Gods

Sunday: Sun Day...Hellenistic astrology.

Monday: Moon Day..also Hellenistic astrology and also dedicated to Hindu god of the moon, Chandra.

Tuesday: Day of Tiw, Norse god of combat

Wednesday: Day of Mercury..reflective of Germanic god Wodin.

Thursday: "Thors" day, dedicated to the Norse god, Thor.

Friday: Day of "Frigg", who was Nordess goddess, Frigg.

Saturday: Roman god, Saturn, god of wealth and agriculture.
.....

So, all the days of the week have pagan origins, and if JW's truly gave a hoot about pagan and non-Christian traditions and usages, they would not even use calendars..or, at least not those pagan-plagued calendars.

After all, the Bible doesn't use those names...the Bible called the days of the week "The first day, second day, third day, etc".

So, if it was really about following Judeo-Christian traditions, that's what JW's would do.

They won't do that, yet they'll bang on birthdays and holidays when the same reasoning they use for those things, are the same reasons they SHOULDN'T use those names.

Talk about hypocrisy and inconsistent thinking and actions.
....

Now of course, onewithhim, I predict you'll make every excuse in the book why using those pagan names is acceptable...but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that if the governing body gave the "command" that JW's will no longer use those names for the days of the week, JWs will be out on the corner with a new "brighter light" teaching, zealously explaining to people why they no longer use the names because "Did you know that the names of the days of the weeks have pagan origins"?

So, while you can act like it is ok now, JW's would be singing a different tune if their governing body handed down the word that forbid them from doing so.

Wearing wedding rings?

Yeah, wedding rings.

No record of Christians during Jesus' time or several centuries beyond wearing wedding rings, that was a Roman thing.

And remember, we shouldn't do what the Romans do, because as Christians, we are set apart from the world!!!

Remember, we should ONLY do what we know the early Christians did.

That's what you guys tell us when you say "No early Christians celebrated their birthday".

Well, apply that to every other thing that we (JW's included) still do that early Christians did not.

It's done for a protection, so that others will know the marital status and avoid problems that may ensue.

But early Judeo-Christians didn't do that, did they?

Remember, we are only to do what the early Christians did...that is JW logic.

Abraham should have just told Sarai, "Don't take off your wedding ring, that way, the King won't take you into his harem because he'll know your married".

Haha.