Sin and Intent

[McCulloch]

... Maybe God sees it differently. ... Some of the best intentions pave the road to hell.

Some Christians claim that since God knows everyone's heart, it is the intent to sin that is wrong not the particular acts of sinning.

Sure, but those are willful acts like white lies or stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Just keep in mind that God is good and a perfect judge. Unlike a human judge He knows everything about you and your son and the circumstances of your life.

Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?

[Confused]

Question(s) for debate: Is it possible, according to the Bible, to unintentionally sin? Or must a person intend to sin for it to be truly a sin? Is lack of intent an excuse before God?

Great debate question!

Yes, I do believe a person can sin unintentionally. Moral culpability is not tied to choice. As far as your last question goes, I have no idea whether or not lack of intent is an excuse before God.

Now, let's go further with the subject of punishment. Under a perfect justice system, would a person who sins unintentionally still be punished? Well, yes. Although I am not a legal scholar, I cannot think of a justice system in the world that does not have laws for third degree murder. There may be one or two, but I think the majority of us agree that intent is not necessary for punishment under a perfect justice system.

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

[4gold]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

[Confused]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

I thank you for finally giving me peace of mind. For some time now I have been struggling with the concept of God and His existence. I have spent many years trying to either seek a path to him to understand Him or disprove his existence. I have found so many fallacies and contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible that it has been difficult for me to be comfortable to make a decision one way or the other. I usually tried to avoid reading the OT because by the time I was into Leviticus 2, I wanted to jump out of a 1000 story building. But reading what you have written has finally convinced me that a God of which the OT and NT speaks of cannot possibly exist. He cannot be what is written. If he cannot be what is written, then it is impossible for Him to exist. He either represents all of the Bible, or none of it. He is either loving and just or He is selfish and unjust. I find Him to be all of the above. These conflictions have finally lead me to believe that the Bible is mere fiction and if he is so just to condemn a person who might unintentionally commit a sin, for lets say diminished capacity, and can't repent because of this diminished capacity, then he can't be what we have falsely lead ourselves to believe. Mankind created God, a work of the imaginaton. As such, he deserves no more of my effort than any other work of fiction. Thank you.

[McCulloch]

Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

I have no burden in this debate. I have no stated position, I was simply asking the question. Given your post, I would agree with you that the burden is now with any bible believer who supports the idea that intention is necessary for sin.

[4gold]

I thank you for finally giving me peace of mind. For some time now I have been struggling with the concept of God and His existence. I have spent many years trying to either seek a path to him to understand Him or disprove his existence. I have found so many fallacies and contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible that it has been difficult for me to be comfortable to make a decision one way or the other. I usually tried to avoid reading the OT because by the time I was into Leviticus 2, I wanted to jump out of a 1000 story building. But reading what you have written has finally convinced me that a God of which the OT and NT speaks of cannot possibly exist. He cannot be what is written. If he cannot be what is written, then it is impossible for Him to exist. He either represents all of the Bible, or none of it. He is either loving and just or He is selfish and unjust. I find Him to be all of the above. These conflictions have finally lead me to believe that the Bible is mere fiction and if he is so just to condemn a person who might unintentionally commit a sin, for lets say diminished capacity, and can't repent because of this diminished capacity, then he can't be what we have falsely lead ourselves to believe. Mankind created God, a work of the imaginaton. As such, he deserves no more of my effort than any other work of fiction. Thank you.

Congratulations on your epiphany! I'm happy to do whatever I can. I am assuming that I did not convince you to reject the possibility of God with my post, but rather my post was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

[Confused]

I thank you for finally giving me peace of mind. For some time now I have been struggling with the concept of God and His existence. I have spent many years trying to either seek a path to him to understand Him or disprove his existence. I have found so many fallacies and contradictions and discrepancies in the Bible that it has been difficult for me to be comfortable to make a decision one way or the other. I usually tried to avoid reading the OT because by the time I was into Leviticus 2, I wanted to jump out of a 1000 story building. But reading what you have written has finally convinced me that a God of which the OT and NT speaks of cannot possibly exist. He cannot be what is written. If he cannot be what is written, then it is impossible for Him to exist. He either represents all of the Bible, or none of it. He is either loving and just or He is selfish and unjust. I find Him to be all of the above. These conflictions have finally lead me to believe that the Bible is mere fiction and if he is so just to condemn a person who might unintentionally commit a sin, for lets say diminished capacity, and can't repent because of this diminished capacity, then he can't be what we have falsely lead ourselves to believe. Mankind created God, a work of the imaginaton. As such, he deserves no more of my effort than any other work of fiction. Thank you.

Congratulations on your epiphany! I'm happy to do whatever I can. I am assuming that I did not convince you to reject the possibility of God with my post, but rather my post was the straw that finally broke the camel's back.

First, it wasnt McCulloch who wrote that passage, it would have been me. The second time you have misquoted my posts. Yes, your post was the proverbial straw. Why, because if one is held responsible for a sin they have committed without knowing they have committed it yet, whether it be a child or mentally challenged adult, then you negate a just God. We must also consider that God makes no mistakes, correct? If so, then any person who lacks the ability to distinguish right from wrong (sin) was a person He created and will now fall between the cracks of his creation to be persecuted and condemned to hell, since ignorance of Gods law is no excuse for sin.

[Confused]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

I would agree with McCulloch in his last thread. You seem to be the one claiming sin is punishable even without intent based on the Bible (Leviticus of all the most ignorant, condemning, and hated book in my opinon). The question is, are you claiming that because of those passages, a person is morally culpable despite intent? Is the term Morally culpable being applied to mans law only, or Gods law as well?

[Goat]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

It all depends.. is the definition for sin that the Tanakah is talking about the same defintion of sin that is generally used by Christians? That makes a big difference.
The term 'Sin' in Hebrew literally means 'Missing the mark' (as not hitting a bullseye). It seems to me that it doesn't have quite the dire consequences as in
Christianity. Everyone makes mistakes, and can sometimes accidently do another harm. In general though, sin doesn't seem to have this heavy duty 'corruption' concept in Judaism as it does in Chrsitianity.

[Confused]

So overall, you don't know. One can sin unintentionally, yes. The best part of this question as far as I am concerned is if scripture says anything about intent being considered prior to passing judgment.

Since no perfect justice sysem exists, it is impossible to postulate an answer to this. Under the American system there are mutliple loop holes for this individual: diminished mental capacity just being one of them. But I disagree, intent is needed for punishment. It is one thing to intend to run someone over, it is another thing if someone jumps out in front of you and you hit them. It is one thing if someone is trying to rape you and you push him hard away from you in which he hits his head on the corner of the end table and dies, it is another if you just push him for the heck of it. Intent in mans justice system goes to the very nature of the crime and is considered in any prosecution.

First, let's deal with the Bible:

Leviticus 4:2 - "Say to the Israelites: 'When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands..."

Leviticus 4:13 - "'If the whole Israelite community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, even though the community is unaware of the matter, they are guilty."

Leviticus 4:22 - " 'When a leader sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the commands of the LORD his God, he is guilty."

Leviticus 4:27 - " 'If a member of the community sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD's commands, he is guilty."

Leviticus 5:!5 - "When a person commits a violation and sins unintentionally in regard to any of the LORD's holy things, he is to bring to the LORD as a penalty a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value in silver, according to the sanctuary shekel. It is a guilt offering."

Leviticus 5:18 - "He is to bring to the priest as a guilt offering a ram from the flock, one without defect and of the proper value. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for the wrong he has committed unintentionally, and he will be forgiven."

Numbers 15:22-29 - " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
" 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien. "

Numbers 35:22 - " 'But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally..."

Ezekiel 45:20 - "You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple."

Seems pretty clear the Bible says you can sin unintentionally. Might just be an Old Testament concept, I'm not sure. I could only find vague references in the New Testament that one could sin beyond one's control.

I'm not sure how this debate goes from here. Is the burden of proof on you to indicate that intentions is necessary for moral culpability, or is the burden of proof upon biblicists to prove that intentions is not necessary for moral culpability?

It all depends.. is the definition for sin that the Tanakah is talking about the same defintion of sin that is generally used by Christians? That makes a big difference.
The term 'Sin' in Hebrew literally means 'Missing the mark' (as not hitting a bullseye). It seems to me that it doesn't have quite the dire consequences as in
Christianity. Everyone makes mistakes, and can sometimes accidently do another harm. In general though, sin doesn't seem to have this heavy duty 'corruption' concept in Judaism as it does in Chrsitianity.

Too bad my quest didn't start with Judaism. So in Judaism is a person with diminished capacity who unintentionally commits a "sin" and doesn't repent because they lack the ability to recognize their sin still as culpable as one who does it with intent and knowledge.

[4gold]

I would agree with McCulloch in his last thread. You seem to be the one claiming sin is punishable even without intent based on the Bible (Leviticus of all the most ignorant, condemning, and hated book in my opinon). The question is, are you claiming that because of those passages, a person is morally culpable despite intent? Is the term Morally culpable being applied to mans law only, or Gods law as well?

So the burden of proof is on me? Okay.

I would say a person need not show intent to be morally culpable and also punishable. Some modern day examples:

*A drunk driver does not intend to kill another driver, yet is punished for such an action.

*Third degree murder includes murder without the intent to kill, but the murderer still goes to jail.

*A factory that emits an excess amount of pollution unintentionally still pays a fine.

I don't know if these kinds of laws are universal or not, but certainly in the American justice system intentionality is not necessary to be legally culpable.

I would apply the same lesson to morals. A drunk driver, an unintentional murderer, and a polluting factory are all still morally culpable for their actions, even though their intentions were not to cause harm.