Gun laws

[Rose2020]

In America.
So, do those who insist on their rights to own guns still feel the same after this latest appalling incident?

As an Englishwoman in the UK, I have never understood this mentality of Americans. Why would the average citizen want a gun?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sorry, i formed an assumption that just about anyone can buy a gun in America?
It's such a different system to that in Britain. Here we just cannot do that and I am so glad.

I too am from Britain but now live in the USA.

Guns are a constitutional right, that runs deep, really deep and is not easy to remove, this is part of the difficulty.

Yes there are serious problems with guns but we must be careful to also recognize that guns aside, the UK is more violent than the US - shocking as that might seem its true.

In the US if anyone breaks into my home I have the right to defend myself with a gun and if necessary to shoot and kill the intruder. I also (in Arizona) have the legal right to carry a concealed firearm with not special permit or anything. This means I can defend myself against any kind of physical attack where I suspect my (or a companion's) life to be in danger.

I cannot walk the streets of London that safely, I cannot ride on a bus or a train that safely. I've seen British violence up close many times, there is a lawlessness among some people that seems to stem from soft weak punishment practices and a sense of entitlement. Day after day I read the news of violent crime, drunks running people over and so on and getting non-custodial sentences and suspended sentences, ridiculous.

In the UK we are all familiar with stories about how the victim/occupant often gets into trouble for using undue force against an intruder, I often read of cases where criminals have entered a home and ended up being on the right side of the law when/if the occupant stabs the intruder or something.

So although guns are a serious horrible problem don't let it mask a deeper reality that guns aside - the US is statistically safer than the UK.

"Almost 12,000 criminals walked free from court with suspended sentences last year".

"Law student, 21, who led police on a 115mph chase while high on cocaine in his £20,000 BMW is spared jail".

"Suspended sentence for man who knocked down and killed dad on crossing".

[Sherlock Holmes]

I understand. Yet we do very well without in the UK.

As I allude to above, this is arguable.

[AgnosticBoy]

In America.
So, do those who insist on their rights to own guns still feel the same after this latest appalling incident?

As an Englishwoman in the UK, I have never understood this mentality of Americans. Why would the average citizen want a gun?

The mentality of Americans to own guns is mostly about self-defense. Sure, guns can be used to carry out evil, but it is also an effective tool for self-defense. I would also think that women and the elderly would benefit from it more because having a gun gives them a better fighting chance than a woman without a gun going up against a rapist or robber.

For those who don't understand, then I'd ask them what is their means of self-defense, especially against someone with a knife or another weapon?!

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]
I've heard the claim before that the UK has a higher crime rate than the US. That's very tricky to understand because the US has a higher gun crime rate, but it all makes sense once you consider that violent crime can be committed with weapons other than guns or with no weapons at all. And I suppose that's what's happening in UK, a lot of violent crime even if guns aren't used a lot.

But here's a fact check I found about the claim of higher crime rates in the UK compared to the US (i thought it was just a Republican talking point):

The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gun control. We’ve checked some of these posts (often called "memes") in the past, but a reader recently sent us one we hadn’t seen, so we decided to take a look.

The meme said: "There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K., making it the most violent place in Europe. Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland. By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000. … So hey, Europe, how ‘bout you shut the #%$@ up about gun control?"

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.

Source: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... violent-c/

And again, I ask, how do people in the UK protect themselves against violent crime? Do they just let themselves be victimized?

[Diogenes]

Source: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... violent-c/

And again, I ask, how do people in the UK protect themselves against violent crime? Do they just let themselves be victimized?

Your own Politifact citation rates your statistic "FALSE."
You are WAY off, as usual. Homicides by firearms in the UK compared to the U.S. represent 4% to 79% of all homicides.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081
There is a successful solution used by the UK, NZ, and Australia, among others:
A broad based regimen of gun control including banning assault weapons and buying back or confiscating firearms. In the U.S. our gun laws are idiotic. For example, In Texas an 18 year old can buy a military style assault weapon, but must wait until age 21 ta buy a handgun.

The human brain isn't even fully developed until age 25. https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclop ... entID=3051
The latest mass murder in Texas shows us law enforcement cannot protect children in schools from a lone gunman. 19 armed police officers in Uvalde, TX stood around, apparently helpless, while on the other side of a door an 18 year old kid continued murdering children crying for help.

[AgnosticBoy]

Source: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... violent-c/

And again, I ask, how do people in the UK protect themselves against violent crime? Do they just let themselves be victimized?

Your own Politifact citation rates your statistic "FALSE."

You are taking things out of context. Here is my claim which I stated in my last post, "the claim of higher crime rates in the UK compared to the US". And here's directly from the article:

This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.

You ignored that information that clearly states that there is higher crime rate in England and Wales than in the US. Had you read the context, you would've realized that what was called "false" was the exact numbers that were cited in a "meme", but eventhough the meme gets the numbers wrong, the conclusion that there is more violent crime in the UK is still the same. It's like the Meme saying that the rate of crime in the UK is 10 per 100,000 and the US is 2 per 100,000, while Politifact finds that it's 8 per 100,000 in the UK and 5 per 100,000 in the US. I don't think I can illustrate my point any simpler than that.

You are WAY off, as usual. Homicides by firearms in the UK compared to the U.S. represent 4% to 79% of all homicides.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41488081

You're WAY off topic since I didn't make any claim here about gun crimes in the UK being higher than that of the US. If anything, I acknowledged the fact. However, interestingly, banning guns does not reduce violent crime. The criminals will just find other ways to commit crime. Eventhough there would be less mass shootings, but you should also inform the populace that they will also be less able to defend themselves, especially when it comes to women and elderly who have to go up against a criminal. I know if I were a criminal, I would want to go after the easier target than to go after someone who is armed.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #16]
Murder rates are not even close.
United States compared to the UK:

Intentional homicide rate 1.17
Ranked 74th. 4.7
Ranked 7th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

Murder rate 722
Ranked 34th. 12,996
Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom

Murder rate per million people 11.68
Ranked 94th. 42.01
Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

Murders 722
Ranked 34th. 12,996
Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom

Murders per million people 11.68
Ranked 94th. 42.01
Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

SOURCES: Wikipedia: List of countries by intentional homicide rate by decade; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Source tables; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Source tables. Population figures from World Bank: (1) Unit
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... lent-crime

[Miles]

[Replying to Sherlock Holmes in post #11]
I've heard the claim before that the UK has a higher crime rate than the US. That's very tricky to understand because the US has a higher gun crime rate, but it all makes sense once you consider that violent crime can be committed with weapons other than guns or with no weapons at all. And I suppose that's what's happening in UK, a lot of violent crime even if guns aren't used a lot.

But here's a fact check I found about the claim of higher crime rates in the UK compared to the US (i thought it was just a Republican talking point):

The debate over gun policy has inspired a blizzard of messages on social media, from both supporters and opponents of gun control. We’ve checked some of these posts (often called "memes") in the past, but a reader recently sent us one we hadn’t seen, so we decided to take a look.

The meme said: "There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K., making it the most violent place in Europe. Austria is second, with a rate of 1,677 per 100,000 people, followed by Sweden, Belgium, Finland and Holland. By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000. … So hey, Europe, how ‘bout you shut the #%$@ up about gun control?"

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

This calculation suggests that there is a higher rate of crime in England and Wales, but the discrepancy is not anywhere near as wide as the one cited in the meme.

Source: https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... violent-c/

And again, I ask, how do people in the UK protect themselves against violent crime? Do they just let themselves be victimized?

From your linked source:

"There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States."

I'll generously assume both you and Politifact simply missed the difference between "2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," and "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States.

Whether in the UK or the USA, Apples still aint Oranges.



.

[AgnosticBoy]

From your linked source:

"There are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," compared to "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States."

I'll generously assume both you and Politifact simply missed the difference between "2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the U.K.," and "466 violent crimes per 100,000" in the United States.

Whether in the UK or the USA, Apples still aint Oranges.



.

You're quoting the comparison made by the person that posted the Meme on social media. The comparison that Politifact made was comparing violent crime with violent crime. They may've made the mistake of misunderstanding the Meme, but I didn't make the mistake of using their facts to support my claim on violent crime. My claim is different than that of the meme.

For England and Wales, we added together three crime categories: "violence against the person, with injury," "most serious sexual crime," and "robbery." This produced a rate of 775 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

For the United States, we used the FBI’s four standard categories for violent crime that Bier cited. We came up with a rate of 383 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

[AgnosticBoy]

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #16]
Murder rates are not even close.
United States compared to the UK:

Intentional homicide rate 1.17
Ranked 74th. 4.7
Ranked 7th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

Murder rate 722
Ranked 34th. 12,996
Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom

Murder rate per million people 11.68
Ranked 94th. 42.01
Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

Murders 722
Ranked 34th. 12,996
Ranked 9th. 18 times more than United Kingdom

Murders per million people 11.68
Ranked 94th. 42.01
Ranked 43th. 4 times more than United Kingdom

SOURCES: Wikipedia: List of countries by intentional homicide rate by decade; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Source tables; United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Source tables. Population figures from World Bank: (1) Unit
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... lent-crime

Sure, just simply ask is "murder" the only type of violent crime? My point was about violent crime OVERALL, and not just ONE type of violent crime. That's at least one big difference between your source and mine.