A SPIRIT WORLD

[Eloi]

The Bible shows that our material world was second in order of existence. The first inhabited world that existed was a world that is invisible to us, but is inhabited by millions of intelligent beings.

The Bible places it in the heavens, but since our physical concepts of dimensions are based on the way we look at the world, it might as well be something like a different dimension, where "above", "below", "before " and "behind" may have a different meaning, or none at all.

Jesus told his apostles that he would take them wherever he was going next. He told them that he would prepare a place for them, because according to him "in the house of [his] Father there are many abodes."

John 14:1 “Do not let YOUR hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God, exercise faith also in me. 2 In the house of my Father there are many abodes. Otherwise, I would have told YOU, because I am going my way to prepare a place for YOU. 3 Also, if I go my way and prepare a place for YOU, I am coming again and will receive YOU home to myself, that where I am YOU also may be. ..."

We, Jehovah's Witnesses know that although the spirits do not have bodies of flesh and blood like us, they have another kind of body with which they distinguish themselves as individuals in that kind of world where they live. We call that kind of body a "spiritual body," as the Scripture calls it. We believe that the Logos of God, who was later born as Jesus, had such a body next to God. Do you agree?

[JehovahsWitness]

In any case without splitting hairs about terminology , the idea is definitely biblical of an [1] organised [2] hierarchical system of [3] intelligent beings that [4] interact and coexist and [5] exists in parallel to out own material world.

You may challenge me on what I wrote - I count [5] different points - if you believe you know your bible well enough to do so; otherwise, your ideas are your own; thank you for sharing them.



JW

Even if I accept all five of those points, they don't add up to a separate spirit world (where world = cosmos) that per the OP is "invisible to us".

Okay, you don't want to discuss the substance of the post but only if the correct terminology has been used. fine: "world" ( kosmos ) as used in scripture is not the correct term.

I guess we're done then,


Goodbye


JW

[Eloi]

When Paul told his anointed brothers in Jerusalem that they would be going to a different environment than on earth, he made the following comparison:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.”

22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

Paul spoke of the magnificence of the place of the spirits, where angels, Jesus, and Jehovah God himself dwell.

In the same letter to the Hebrews, Paul expresses that no human could make the passage from our material to the spiritual "universe"... but that situation changed when, in a metaphorical sense, Jesus opened that door and with his sacrifice allowed other human beings, those who will be kings and priests with him, come to live there.

Heb. 9:8 Thus the holy spirit makes it clear that the way into the holy place had not yet been revealed while the first tent was standing.
... 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with sincere hearts and complete faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.

Under inspiration, the biblical writers informed us that the members of that body of priest-kings who will live in heaven must be "physically" transformed to live in that environment of spirits.

1 John 3:2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.

[theophile]

When Paul told his anointed brothers in Jerusalem that they would be going to a different environment than on earth, he made the following comparison:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.”

22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

Paul spoke of the magnificence of the place of the spirits, where angels, Jesus, and Jehovah God himself dwell.

In the same letter to the Hebrews, Paul expresses that no human could make the passage from our material to the spiritual "universe"... but that situation changed when, in a metaphorical sense, Jesus opened that door and with his sacrifice allowed other human beings, those who will be kings and priests with him, come to live there.

Heb. 9:8 Thus the holy spirit makes it clear that the way into the holy place had not yet been revealed while the first tent was standing.
... 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness for the way of entry into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 which he opened up for us as a new and living way through the curtain, that is, his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us approach with sincere hearts and complete faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from a wicked conscience and our bodies bathed with clean water.

Under inspiration, the biblical writers informed us that the members of that body of priest-kings who will live in heaven must be "physically" transformed to live in that environment of spirits.

1 John 3:2 Beloved ones, we are now children of God, but it has not yet been made manifest what we will be. We do know that when he is made manifest we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as that one is pure.

Revelation 21:1-3 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them."

So here you have God living on earth in a very material city (later described in material terms such as gold and precious gemstones) descending from the heavens God made in Gen 1 and where presumably God has been dwelling to date. (No mention whatsoever of a separate spirit world.)

This is the culmination and final vision that all the verses you cite from Hebrews point to. And it makes me wonder what happened to the separate spirit world that you say pre-existed the heavens and the earth spoken of here (and in Genesis 1). Does God just abandon it for this world? Maybe it never existed at all, to my point...

[JehovahsWitness]

Revelation 21:1-3 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them."

Revelation is highly SYMBOLIC ; the verse does not mean God literally comes to live on the planet earth.







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[JehovahsWitness]

HEAVEN, THE HEAVENS AND SKY

So here you have .... the heavens God made in Gen 1

The word "heaven(s)" is used in several ways in the bible. In Genesis the writer is referring to the creation of the physical universe (stars /galexies/ planets) not the spiritual realm (the invisible dimension where God, the spirits (angels) exist. Note the following scriptures ...

PSAMS 8:3
When I see your heavens, the works of your fingers, The moon and the stars that you have prepared

ISAIAH 40:26
"Lift your eyes up to heaven and see who created all these” the one who leads out their vast array of stars by number, calling them all by name” because of his great might and his powerful strength — and not one is missing." ISV

From the above scriptures it seems clear that the bible writers are here using the expression "the heavens" not to refer to the invisible realm but to that which can be seen. Other verses in the bible speak of the heavens where birds fly, obviously refering to the sky.


BEGINNING OF WHICH HEAVENS?

Since God has always existed and heaven is "where" God is (as in his spiritual abode ) , spiritual heaven had no beginning . "[T]he beginning" referred to at Genesis 1:1 therefore had to be the beginning of God's acts of physical creation, namely the stars, galaxies, planets and everything that makes up the physical universe.

FURTHER READING
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200001949


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[JehovahsWitness]

Is there or is there not a separate spirit world per the bible? i.e., an invisible ["cosmos"/realm] presumably on a wholly other plane than this one?

Yes, there is.

With its own 'spirit version' of space and time...

Presumably so, how else would they perceive something happening before or after another thing ? How else could they meet together for a particular event as described in the book of Job and other verses?

JOB 1:6

Now the day came when the sons of the true God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and Satan also entered among them

... It's own celestial bodies... It's own cities and natural spaces...

That I cannot say. I have no idea what heaven looks like - noone on earth does.

.... All populated with its own spirit beings all going about their business...

If the bible is to believed, yes. There is no doubt spirits/angels are intelligent moral beings that can travel/ move from one location to another, have their own language, interact and converse , and have rank, position and specific tasks.

It all feels a bit farfetched, and we should go with the simplest explanation that fits the biblical evidence...

It seems "farfetched to YOU" but not to me... and the above does fit the "biblical evidence". Again, if you wish to challenge me on that, feel free.






JW

[theophile]

Is there or is there not a separate spirit world per the bible? i.e., an invisible ["cosmos"/realm] presumably on a wholly other plane than this one?

Yes, there is.

Thank you for directly answering the question.

Revelation 21:1-3 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them."

Revelation is highly SYMBOLIC ; the verse does not mean God literally comes to live on the planet earth.

Yes, Revelation is highly symbolic, but I don't think we can extend that symbolism to everything that it says, including the meaning of the heavens and the earth, which connects directly to Genesis 1 and is critical to the question at hand. Or at least, we have to be careful with such a move (otherwise I'm liable to say everything you want to take literally is symbolic!)

The word "heaven(s)" is used in several ways in the bible. In Genesis the writer is referring to the creation of the physical universe (stars /galexies/ planets) not the spiritual realm (the invisible dimension where God, the spirits (angels) exist. Note the following scriptures ...

This is where we depart ways. I would extend the meaning you indicate here in Genesis 1 as the one and only meaning of 'heaven'. The verses you go on to cite (as you say yourself) reinforce this. Heaven is the heavens we see when we look up into the sky. It is not a separate, invisible spirit realm. If there is anything beyond the heavens it is 'the deep.' (Which per Genesis 1 God expanded the heavens out into, and built the firmament to hold back. But I don't think the deep is a purely spiritual realm.)

Since God has always existed and heaven is "where" God is (as in his spiritual abode ) , spiritual heaven had no beginning . "[T]he beginning" referred to at Genesis 1:1 therefore had to be the beginning of God's acts of physical creation, namely the stars, galaxies, planets and everything that makes up the physical universe.

Per before, I would argue that Genesis 1 explicitly portrays a different pre-existing cosmos (the great deep or cosmic ocean that God is in / with). This eliminates the need for an assumed spirit realm. (If God came from anywhere God came from the very deep we find God hovering over in Genesis 1:2.)

As an interesting point from the verse from Revelation 21 that I cited,
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea."

It's such a beautiful repetition and addition to Genesis 1:1-2 where the heavens and the earth are recreated and the deep / sea that always was with God no longer is. At least no longer separately (God at last becoming all in all per Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, filling the deep / calming the sea in its entirety...).

[

It all feels a bit farfetched, and we should go with the simplest explanation that fits the biblical evidence...

It seems "farfetched to YOU" but not to me... and the above does fit the "biblical evidence". Again, if you wish to challenge me on that, feel free.

If I was rude earlier I apologize, and am appreciative of your thoughts and comments. I just think there is a different explanation with strong evidence that may be worth considering.

But with that, let me also return to the idea you shared earlier, and that I bypassed:

the idea is definitely biblical of an [1] organised [2] hierarchical system of [3] intelligent beings that [4] interact and coexist and [5] exists in parallel to our own material world.

It would be helpful to first discuss what spiritual beings are, but an initial response:

[1 and 2] organized and hierarchical: Depends I assume such verses as those from Job howings divine councils and the children of God jumping for joy in response to creation are the best evidence. The problem is that the children of God in these scenes are ones like Christ: they are the perfect union of spiritual and material being. These organizations / hierarchies are not a purely spiritual affair, and don't require a separate spirit cosmos.

[3] intelligent No, I disagree with this one. But this one is also a question of what we take to be literal versus symbolic... You have tons of literal evidence you could point to (like Jesus talking to evil spirits). But the bible does have an interesting tendency to anthropomorphize things. For example, the earth vomits out its inhabitants. Serpents talk...

I think the same is true of the spiritual. Spirit beings are shown to have intelligent conversation but I think this is to anthropomorphize them. To be precise, I think that spirit beings have a certain intelligence to them, by which I mean a perceivable meaning that they can convey, but they are not intelligent beings in themselves.

Hence the importance of understanding what a spirit being is... To me they are something akin to a word, a calling, an idea. Something carried on a breath, like the divine logos per Eloi's earlier suggestion. Spirits are in themselves powerless, but as words they have the power to inhabit us, to take over our hearts and minds, and in the process gain real power and effect in the material world.

But this will be an unwinnable debate. Again, it's a matter of literal versus symbolic.

[4 and 5]interacts, coexists and exists in parallel to our own material world: 100%. But again, this doesn't mean a separate spirit cosmos that pre-exists Genesis 1 and that has always existed.

Per my definition of spiritual, I think it has a very intimate relationship with the material. It is spoken / breathed by it. It inhabits it and is conveyed and fulfilled by it.

[JehovahsWitness]

I would argue that Genesis 1 explicitly portrays a different pre-existing cosmos (the great deep or cosmic ocean that God is in / with).

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 40

And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

Biblically there are only two types of bodies, earthly and heavenly. Supporting this conclusion, Colossians speaks of all created things being in just two catergories "visible" and "invisible".

Logically, if the earthly/visible refer to that which is in [1] our carbon based physical universe, everything else that exists would be [2] the "heavenly/invisible" realm. The bible says God is a spirit, and invisible to humans, so it is logical he is of the heavenly/invisible" realm.

WHEREVER I LAY MY HAT, THAT'S MY HEAVEN

There is no third option, so whatever you are calling a "different" pre-existing " cosmic ocean" must either be in the invisible spirit realm or part of our physical carbon based (earthly) universe. Since (through Jesus) all things that exist were created by God, and the bible calls whereever this invisible spirit God is... HEAVEN, the ONLY realm can have existed for endless ions is spiritual.

COLOSSIANS 1:15

... because by means of him [Jesus/The Word] all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible

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[JehovahsWitness]

[3] intelligent No, I disagree with this one.

God is a spirit, so you dont think God is intelligent ?

Spirits are in themselves powerless ...

God is a spirit, so you think Him "powerless"?

[theophile]

I would argue that Genesis 1 explicitly portrays a different pre-existing cosmos (the great deep or cosmic ocean that God is in / with).

1 CORINTHIANS 15: 40

And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.

Biblically there are only two types of bodies, earthly and heavenly. Supporting this conclusion, Colossians speaks of all created things being in just two catergories "visible" and "invisible".

COLOSSIANS 1:15

... because by means of him [Jesus/The Word] all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible

I have no conflict with these verses you cite from Paul. But they're both talking about the scope of God's creation, i.e., the heavens and the earth. But this is not all that is. Again, the deep/sea/waters are outside of this scope. The deep/sea/waters are never-created but are pre-existing with God...

So I still find the whole left side of the diagram you posted unnecessary, and better if replaced by the deep/ocean surrounding it all (encompassing both the heavens and the earth per Genesis 1's description).

A more representative view would be something like the following diagram that was posted on another thread. Note: I do not agree with all aspects of this diagram (like the "heaven of heavens" which is more your line of thinking), but the uncreated deep/ocean surrounding it all is well conveyed here I think.

There is no third option, so whatever you are calling a "different" pre-existing " cosmic ocean" must either be in the invisible spirit realm or part of our physical carbon based (earthly) universe. Since (through Jesus) all things that exist were created by God, and the bible calls whereever this invisible spirit God is... HEAVEN, the ONLY realm can have existed for endless ions is spiritual.

The deep/sea/waters were never created by God (or if they were, show me where). So 'water' is a third ontological category (arguably) on top of the heavenly and earthly bodies you referenced above. It is the uncreated 'fluid' in which creation happens. Kind of like the amniotic fluid of a great cosmic womb that the heavens and the earth expand into... (I feel like I can make this statement and not contradict Paul since again, Paul was only talking about what God made with his two categories.)

But to directly answer your question, I would say 'who knows' what this cosmic ocean all holds or what it is actually made of. Spirits, monsters, etc. (I would argue that Revelation gives us a view into this, as it shows God 'conquering' everything that the deep throws God's way until the entire deep has emptied and God fills it - hence why John says it no longer exists at the end...)

[3] intelligent No, I disagree with this one.

God is a spirit, so you dont think God is intelligent ?

Spirits are in themselves powerless ...

God is a spirit, so you think Him "powerless"?

In Genesis 1:2 (and I would argue anywhere God speaks in the bible) we see the spirit of God, not necessarily God. I am often tempted but don't want to conflate the two and think we should keep them separate. But to your questions, yes, I think the spirit of God is neither intelligent nor powerful. It is a word (the Word), and we should treat it as such.

As such (as a word), it can convey intelligence, but it is not itself intelligent. It can have power committed to it, but it has no real power in itself beyond the power to call and take hold of us.

I would honestly 'black box' God beyond that. i.e., put a black box around God that we have no further insight to. As such, I have nothing really to say about who or what the original 'speaker' of the Word is. Whether God is an intelligent, powerful being or frankly the lowliest thing to ever exist. The Word is the only thing (IMO) that matters, and it can be spoken from anyone / anything.