Did Jesus observe the Rabbinic prohibition

[Elijah John]

1) Did Jesus observe the Rabbinic prohibition against pronouncing the sacred Name of God, YHVH?

2) Or is there any evidence that Jesus pronounced the Name? And taught others to?

3) Is the Rabbinic prohibition against pronouncing the Name Biblical?

4) Or is the Rabbinic prohibition another one of the "traditions of men" that Jesus railed against.

[Difflugia]

That gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be a discussion.

Yes, it does.

Indeed there WAS a command to speak the Tetragrammaton, at Exodus 3:15.

There's no command there for anyone other than Moses to speak God's name. His name is to be a memorial to the Israelites forever, but He doesn't say in what way it is to be a memorial. That's definitely being pedantic and I think you're probably right, but there's no room for the certainty you claim as long as you're equally pedantic about, say, John 1:1, where it's the trinitarians that are probably right.

Quite a few versions of the Bible retain God's Name in this verse, where it appears in the original Hebrew. Three of these are: Young's Literal Translation, The Living Bible, and the American Standard.

The presence of God's name in the verse isn't the same as a command for everyone to speak it.

You keep saying that there's evidence that Jesus spoke God's name, but as far as I can tell, that evidence is just your conviction that Jesus agreed with your understanding of the Torah. The places in the New Testament where we would expect evidence of Jesus speaking the name of God simply don't show any, either in the text or in the reactions of those around him. You were told this in the other threads you mentioned and have been shown numerous times that the New Testament doesn't support, either explicitly or implicitly, that Jesus said God's name. Your response has invariably been, "but the Old Testament!"

What you suggest may be right and may have happened. The evidence, such as it is, is against it, but it's possible. I might gently suggest, however, that it's also at least possible that Jesus didn't understand the Old Testament exactly as you do, he may not have reacted the way you think he should have, and that your reading might not be the only way to understand Jesus.

[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 7 by onewithhim]

Years ago I met one of the Bible Scholars who was a translator of the NIV at Princeton Theological Seminary. I asked him if he knew of any Greek Manuscript that contained the Divine Name. He answered..." I know of none"

[onewithhim]

You apparently did not read my post. That gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be a discussion. Indeed there WAS a command to speak the Tetragrammaton, at Exodus 3:15. Quite a few versions of the Bible retain God's Name in this verse, where it appears in the original Hebrew. Three of these are: Young's Literal Translation, The Living Bible, and the American Standard.

Saying that Exodus 3:15 was a command to speak the name aloud is problematic. God could be known by that Name without saying it aloud. Refusing to speak the Name, saying that the Name is too holy to be uttered by human lips, puts the focus on the Name and reminds people that this is who God is even without saying the Name aloud.

If modern translation keep the Tetragrammaton in their translation or not has nothing to do with Jesus speaking that Name or not.

I will also note that as you accused me of not reading your post, but then it seems you failed to read mine. You responded only to the opening of it, ignoring the evidence which suggest that Jesus obeyed the injunction not to speak that Name aloud.

Where is there anything in the Scriptures that would make us believe that God does not want us to speak His name? I haven't seen anything yet. If He wants us to USE His name, why would He want us to not utter it? None of that makes sense.

As to whether or not Jesus uttered the Name, it has been discussed on page one and also other threads "The Divine Name in the New Testament," and "The Divine Name in the New Testament with Proof."



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[Red Wolf]

You apparently did not read my post. That gets frustrating, since this is supposed to be a discussion. Indeed there WAS a command to speak the Tetragrammaton, at Exodus 3:15. Quite a few versions of the Bible retain God's Name in this verse, where it appears in the original Hebrew. Three of these are: Young's Literal Translation, The Living Bible, and the American Standard.

Saying that Exodus 3:15 was a command to speak the name aloud is problematic. God could be known by that Name without saying it aloud. Refusing to speak the Name, saying that the Name is too holy to be uttered by human lips, puts the focus on the Name and reminds people that this is who God is even without saying the Name aloud.

If modern translation keep the Tetragrammaton in their translation or not has nothing to do with Jesus speaking that Name or not.

I will also note that as you accused me of not reading your post, but then it seems you failed to read mine. You responded only to the opening of it, ignoring the evidence which suggest that Jesus obeyed the injunction not to speak that Name aloud.

Where is there anything in the Scriptures that would make us believe that God does not want us to speak His name? I haven't seen anything yet. If He wants us to USE His name, why would He want us to not utter it? None of that makes sense.

As to whether or not Jesus uttered the Name, it has been discussed on page one and also other threads "The Divine Name in the New Testament," and "The Divine Name in the New Testament with Proof."



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Since there are no vowels in the Divine name we don't even know the correct way to pronounce the name. So you can't say it....

[Elijah John]

Since there are no vowels in the Divine name we don't even know the correct way to pronounce the name. So you can't say it....

Scholars though various linguistic processes of reconstruction have a pretty good idea. Either "Yahweh/Yahveh" or "Yehovah". One thing we know for sure is the abbreviated form of the Divine name, it is "Yah". As in "hallelujah". Translates to "praise Yah".

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 14 by Red Wolf]

We can say the Name as we understand it. There dozens of ways to pronounce it, depending on what language one speaks, and I am sure He accepts the efforts. Why throw the Tetragrammaton on the trash heap?


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[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

I always have wondered why the NT writers never put the Divine Name in their text. It appears that the NT writers put the Divine Name on the trash heap.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

I always have wondered why the NT writers never put the Divine Name in their text. It appears that the NT writers put the Divine Name on the trash heap.

Not the N.T. writers, but copyists and clergy that came afterward and eliminated the Tetragrammaton from the writings. We have talked about this before.


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[Red Wolf]

[Replying to post 18 by onewithhim]

Do you have any proof that the scribes and clergy removed the Divine Name?
Or is this something you have chosen to believe without any factual basis?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 19 by Red Wolf]

The Tetragrammaton was there in the Hebrew text and also the Greek Septuagint, so when Jesus read the Scriptures he would come across the Divine Name and would pronounce it, undoubtedly, "in accordance with his determination to make Jehovah's name known as can be seen from his prayer to his Father: 'I have made your name manifest to the men you gave me out of the world....I have made your name known to them and will make it known.'--John 17:6,26." (Appendix, NWT study Bible)

Matthew wrote his Gospel in Hebrew with all the Hebrew characters, for the benefit of those Jews who came to believe. The Hebrew of Matthew's Gospel is preserved now in the library at Caesarea. (Jerome, 4th century, Concerning Illustrious Men, chapter III.)

People, when copying the sacred text, had to be very careful about copying every word correctly. Therefore when Matthew made quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, he would have been obligated to include the Divine Name as it appeared. When the Gospel of Matthew was translated into Greek, the Tetragrammaton would have been left, as is, within the Greek text according to the practice of that time. That only stands to reason.

It is said that sometime during the 2nd or 3rd centuries A.D. that scribes removed the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Kyrios, "Lord" or Theos, "God."

George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in the Journal of Biblical Literature, Volume 96, 1977, p.63:

"Recent discoveries in Egypt and the Judean Desert allow us to see first hand the use of God's name in pre-Christian times. These discoveries are significant for New Testament studies in that they form a literary analogy with the earliest Christian documents and may explain how NT authors used the divine name....We will set forth a theory that the divine name (YHWH) was originally written in the NT quotations of and allusions to the Old Testament and that in the course of time it was replaced mainly with the surrogate Kyrios, 'Lord.' This removal of the Tetragrammaton, in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the 'Lord God' and the 'Lord Christ' which is reflected in the MS tradition of the NT text itself."

So it is left to us to either accept this "theory" as grounded and correct, or to reject it. I accept it as fact.


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