Christian expectations

[Menotu]

People have expectations of certain groups of people: policeman, politicians, salesman, attorneys, women, men, priests/religious leaders, etc.
People have expectations of themselves, too.
Typically, they are thought to be honest, respectful, sincere, loving, etc.
No one is perfect (policemen and attorneys can lie, politicians can steal, salesmen rip you off, women can be masculine, men can be feminine, priest can molest children and adulterous, etc) Christians can (and do) slip up as well.

Questions to consider:
1) should people be harder on Christians when they slip up, understanding they aren't perfect but have a perfect being supporting them?
2) should people expect more out of Christians than they do policemen, priests, attorneys, etc, understanding they aren't perfect but have a perfect being supporting them?
3) should Christians be given more leeway when it comes to being hateful, forcing their views on society, endorsing laws that remove protection from other groups?
4) should Christians be given less leeway when it comes to the expectation of them being loving, caring and sincere to all people, regardless of religious (or lack of) belief?

[onewithhim]

That includes priests. I have done MUCH reading and observing concerning priests. I am confident to say that 99.9% of them, if not directly implicated in pornographic acts, are at least knowledgeable about such acts, which are a PANDEMIC. They must all know what's going on, so none of them are innocent. To stay in that religion is tantamount to approving of the maltreatment of children and others. This is my opinion, formed through the last many years.

You of course don't identify the religion you are condemning. Given that the Jehovah's Witnesses have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles in their ranks, which is de facto approval of the maltreatment of children, why should any stay in the JW religion?


Tcg

Where do you get your information from that says that JWs have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles? Has this indeed been proven?

If I was convinced that our brothers were protecting pedophiles, I would not be in this religion.

• In 2013 at the Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Moston, Manchester, England, church elder and convicted child sex offender Jonathan Rose, following his completion of a nine-month jail sentence for paedophile offences, was allowed in a series of a public meetings to cross-examine the children he had molested.[60][61] Rose was finally 'disfellowshipped' after complaints to the police and the Charity Commission for England and Wales.[60]
  
  In a separate incident, prior to the trial and conviction for rape and sexual assault in June 2014 of Mark Sewell, an elder of the congregation in Barry, Wales, the church conducted an internal investigation of the allegations, where the women and children had to face their alleged abuser in “judicial committee� hearings organised by their church.[62] A child victim, for whom Sewell was later convicted of rape, alleged that she was questioned closely by church elders when she came forward years after the attack, and was required to describe the incident to them in intimate detail, with Sewell present, but her claims were dismissed by the committee and not taken to the police for further investigation.[63][64] In June Sewell was jailed for fourteen years for the rape and sexual abuse of parishioners, including children.[65][66] All but one of Sewell's fellow elders who investigated claims against him, declined to give evidence in his Crown Court trial. They also provided no assistance to police and prosecutors in their investigation, despite “dis-fellowshipping� Sewell 20 years previously, and destroyed evidence showing claims against Sewell dating back more than 20 years.[67] In June 2014, Sewell was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for eight sex offenses; in December 2014 he appealed unsuccessfully for reduction of his sentence.[68]
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... llegations

I'll now expect you to leave your religion as you have promised.


Tcg

Really, it'll take more than one article to CONVINCE me that the brothers treated the molesters with kid gloves and just refused to cooperate with Sewell's unmasking. Show me more info on those situations.

[brianbbs67]

That includes priests. I have done MUCH reading and observing concerning priests. I am confident to say that 99.9% of them, if not directly implicated in pornographic acts, are at least knowledgeable about such acts, which are a PANDEMIC. They must all know what's going on, so none of them are innocent. To stay in that religion is tantamount to approving of the maltreatment of children and others. This is my opinion, formed through the last many years.

You of course don't identify the religion you are condemning. Given that the Jehovah's Witnesses have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles in their ranks, which is de facto approval of the maltreatment of children, why should any stay in the JW religion?


Tcg

Where do you get your information from that says that JWs have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles? Has this indeed been proven?

If I was convinced that our brothers were protecting pedophiles, I would not be in this religion.

• In 2013 at the Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Moston, Manchester, England, church elder and convicted child sex offender Jonathan Rose, following his completion of a nine-month jail sentence for paedophile offences, was allowed in a series of a public meetings to cross-examine the children he had molested.[60][61] Rose was finally 'disfellowshipped' after complaints to the police and the Charity Commission for England and Wales.[60]
  
  In a separate incident, prior to the trial and conviction for rape and sexual assault in June 2014 of Mark Sewell, an elder of the congregation in Barry, Wales, the church conducted an internal investigation of the allegations, where the women and children had to face their alleged abuser in “judicial committee� hearings organised by their church.[62] A child victim, for whom Sewell was later convicted of rape, alleged that she was questioned closely by church elders when she came forward years after the attack, and was required to describe the incident to them in intimate detail, with Sewell present, but her claims were dismissed by the committee and not taken to the police for further investigation.[63][64] In June Sewell was jailed for fourteen years for the rape and sexual abuse of parishioners, including children.[65][66] All but one of Sewell's fellow elders who investigated claims against him, declined to give evidence in his Crown Court trial. They also provided no assistance to police and prosecutors in their investigation, despite “dis-fellowshipping� Sewell 20 years previously, and destroyed evidence showing claims against Sewell dating back more than 20 years.[67] In June 2014, Sewell was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for eight sex offenses; in December 2014 he appealed unsuccessfully for reduction of his sentence.[68]
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... llegations

I'll now expect you to leave your religion as you have promised.


Tcg

Really, it'll take more than one article to CONVINCE me that the brothers treated the molesters with kid gloves and just refused to cooperate with Sewell's unmasking. Show me more info on those situations.

One, the point being made is this aberrant behavior comes in all groups of all people. Seems to happen more often In the RCC but they are a large group. In other words, none are good. Which Jesus pointed out when he was called good. So , no one religion can really claim high ground as these abominations still happen, universally. I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

[Menotu]

That includes priests. I have done MUCH reading and observing concerning priests. I am confident to say that 99.9% of them, if not directly implicated in pornographic acts, are at least knowledgeable about such acts, which are a PANDEMIC. They must all know what's going on, so none of them are innocent. To stay in that religion is tantamount to approving of the maltreatment of children and others. This is my opinion, formed through the last many years.

You of course don't identify the religion you are condemning. Given that the Jehovah's Witnesses have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles in their ranks, which is de facto approval of the maltreatment of children, why should any stay in the JW religion?


Tcg

Where do you get your information from that says that JWs have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles? Has this indeed been proven?

If I was convinced that our brothers were protecting pedophiles, I would not be in this religion.

• In 2013 at the Jehovah's Witnesses congregation of Moston, Manchester, England, church elder and convicted child sex offender Jonathan Rose, following his completion of a nine-month jail sentence for paedophile offences, was allowed in a series of a public meetings to cross-examine the children he had molested.[60][61] Rose was finally 'disfellowshipped' after complaints to the police and the Charity Commission for England and Wales.[60]
  
  In a separate incident, prior to the trial and conviction for rape and sexual assault in June 2014 of Mark Sewell, an elder of the congregation in Barry, Wales, the church conducted an internal investigation of the allegations, where the women and children had to face their alleged abuser in “judicial committee� hearings organised by their church.[62] A child victim, for whom Sewell was later convicted of rape, alleged that she was questioned closely by church elders when she came forward years after the attack, and was required to describe the incident to them in intimate detail, with Sewell present, but her claims were dismissed by the committee and not taken to the police for further investigation.[63][64] In June Sewell was jailed for fourteen years for the rape and sexual abuse of parishioners, including children.[65][66] All but one of Sewell's fellow elders who investigated claims against him, declined to give evidence in his Crown Court trial. They also provided no assistance to police and prosecutors in their investigation, despite “dis-fellowshipping� Sewell 20 years previously, and destroyed evidence showing claims against Sewell dating back more than 20 years.[67] In June 2014, Sewell was sentenced to fourteen years in prison for eight sex offenses; in December 2014 he appealed unsuccessfully for reduction of his sentence.[68]
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%2 ... llegations

I'll now expect you to leave your religion as you have promised.


Tcg

Really, it'll take more than one article to CONVINCE me that the brothers treated the molesters with kid gloves and just refused to cooperate with Sewell's unmasking. Show me more info on those situations.

I saw several reference on that provided link.
How many stories will it take?
Simply curious

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 13 by Menotu]

I read the Wikipedia article, and I didn't see anything to convince me that molestations are covered up. I would have to see more articles---not just this one---that detailed particular situations, and even news reports themselves...not laundered through Wikipedia with possible additions and failures to report everything. You will have to do some research and dig up newspaper and magazine articles like I have collected on the Catholic Church. If you really want to convince a JW, that's what you'll have to do.

(It's interesting that the article brought out that Jehovah's Witnesses are not like the Catholic Church. Elders are rarely involved in the molestations whereby Catholic priests and bishops are usually involved. Also, JWs have a lot of instructions on keeping children safe and how the offender must be handled.)

One thing that the article referred to briefly was that offenders who have been disciplined (such as disfellowshipped) and/or imprisoned, they might have privileges returned (if they are repentant), eventually. This was misleading. What kind of privileges are we talking about? The article didn't make that clear.

If a predator has been disciplined and returns to the congregation and repents, he may eventually be able to answer at Watchtower studies or Bible studies mid-week, but he will never be able to be an elder or ministerial servant or be allowed contact with children not his own. That is set in stone. And it is up to the parents to make sure their children are not alone with a former predator.



.[/b]

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 13 by Menotu]

I read the Wikipedia article, and I didn't see anything to convince me that molestations are covered up. I would have to see more articles---not just this one---that detailed particular situations, and even news reports themselves...not laundered through Wikipedia with possible additions and failures to report everything. You will have to do some research and dig up newspaper and magazine articles like I have collected on the Catholic Church. If you really want to convince a JW, that's what you'll have to do.

(It's interesting that the article brought out that Jehovah's Witnesses are not like the Catholic Church. Elders are rarely involved in the molestations whereby Catholic priests and bishops are usually involved. Also, JWs have a lot of instructions on keeping children safe and how the offender must be handled.)

One thing that the article referred to briefly was that offenders who have been disciplined (such as disfellowshipped) and/or imprisoned, they might have privileges returned (if they are repentant), eventually. This was misleading. What kind of privileges are we talking about? The article didn't make that clear.

If a predator has been disciplined and returns to the congregation and repents, he may eventually be able to answer at Watchtower studies or Bible studies mid-week, but he will never be able to be an elder or ministerial servant or be allowed contact with children not his own. That is set in stone. And it is up to the parents to make sure their children are not alone with a former predator.



.[/b]

So what would it take to convince you? Would you have to personally know someone involved?

Not saying you're wrong in your POV, just that, reading over it, there seems to be a lot indicating that issue.

While I understand the inherent need to protect one's religion (Catholics do/did it during their scandal - people are people after all), just wondering at what point does someone step away from their protected lifestyle choice and take a stand when (if) their religion's is wrong.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 13 by Menotu]

I read the Wikipedia article, and I didn't see anything to convince me that molestations are covered up. I would have to see more articles---not just this one---that detailed particular situations, and even news reports themselves...not laundered through Wikipedia with possible additions and failures to report everything. You will have to do some research and dig up newspaper and magazine articles like I have collected on the Catholic Church. If you really want to convince a JW, that's what you'll have to do.

(It's interesting that the article brought out that Jehovah's Witnesses are not like the Catholic Church. Elders are rarely involved in the molestations whereby Catholic priests and bishops are usually involved. Also, JWs have a lot of instructions on keeping children safe and how the offender must be handled.)

One thing that the article referred to briefly was that offenders who have been disciplined (such as disfellowshipped) and/or imprisoned, they might have privileges returned (if they are repentant), eventually. This was misleading. What kind of privileges are we talking about? The article didn't make that clear.

If a predator has been disciplined and returns to the congregation and repents, he may eventually be able to answer at Watchtower studies or Bible studies mid-week, but he will never be able to be an elder or ministerial servant or be allowed contact with children not his own. That is set in stone. And it is up to the parents to make sure their children are not alone with a former predator.



.[/b]

So what would it take to convince you? Would you have to personally know someone involved?

Not saying you're wrong in your POV, just that, reading over it, there seems to be a lot indicating that issue.

While I understand the inherent need to protect one's religion (Catholics do/did it during their scandal - people are people after all), just wondering at what point does someone step away from their protected lifestyle choice and take a stand when (if) their religion's is wrong.

I told you. Show me years of newspaper and magazine articles, like I have of the RCC. Boston Globe articles, Rolling Stone articles, newspaper articles from the areas where the alleged cover-ups went down. It'll take time, but you want to show me how evil JWs are, so prove it.

If I had been a Catholic, I would've been long gone after all the documented pedophilia cases and cover-ups were exposed, starting in earnest back in the 1990s. I haven't seen anything but an accusation here and there, and shaky evidence at that, concerning JWs.



.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

It'll take time, but you want to show me how evil JWs are, so prove it.

Someone said JWs are evil?!?
I didn't see that, but maybe I missed it.
But ever bushel has a couple bad apples I suppose (speaking personally, of course).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

It'll take time, but you want to show me how evil JWs are, so prove it.

Someone said JWs are evil?!?
I didn't see that, but maybe I missed it.
But ever bushel has a couple bad apples I suppose (speaking personally, of course).

It's very true. The difference with JWs is that they don't allow someone who molests children to stay in the organization, and if they repent they can come back but will never hold positions of authority again, or be allowed to be near other people's children unsupervised.



.

[Tcg]

That includes priests. I have done MUCH reading and observing concerning priests. I am confident to say that 99.9% of them, if not directly implicated in pornographic acts, are at least knowledgeable about such acts, which are a PANDEMIC. They must all know what's going on, so none of them are innocent. To stay in that religion is tantamount to approving of the maltreatment of children and others. This is my opinion, formed through the last many years.

You of course don't identify the religion you are condemning. Given that the Jehovah's Witnesses have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles in their ranks, which is de facto approval of the maltreatment of children, why should any stay in the JW religion?


Tcg

Where do you get your information from that says that JWs have been found guilty of protecting pedophiles? Has this indeed been proven?

If I was convinced that our brothers were protecting pedophiles, I would not be in this religion.

Breaking news: JWs are being investigated for covering up sexual abuse yet again:

• A Pennsylvania grand jury is investigating Jehovah’s Witnesses for alleged sex-abuse cover-up, man who testified says
  
  by David Gambacorta, Updated: February 8, 2020- 10:16 PM
  
  For more than two decades, disturbing allegations of child sex abuse have emerged at Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations across the country, even as the organization’s leaders have largely avoided serious law enforcement scrutiny.
  
  That might be about to change.
  
  Pennsylvania Attorney General Josh Shapiro has launched a grand jury investigation into allegations that Jehovah’s Witness officials have long been covering up reports of abuse, according to Mark O’Donnell, a former Witness who said he testified before the grand jury last year.
  
  O’Donnell, 46, shared with The Inquirer a copy of the subpoena that he received before he traveled in August to Harrisburg, where he testified for more than two hours in front of 23 grand jury members.
  
  https://www.inquirer.com/news/pennsylva ... 00209.html

Tcg

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 16 by onewithhim]

It'll take time, but you want to show me how evil JWs are, so prove it.

Someone said JWs are evil?!?
I didn't see that, but maybe I missed it.
But ever bushel has a couple bad apples I suppose (speaking personally, of course).

It's very true. The difference with JWs is that they don't allow someone who molests children to stay in the organization, and if they repent they can come back but will never hold positions of authority again, or be allowed to be near other people's children unsupervised.



.

Is that enough? Seems that 'punishment' doesn't fit the crime and they're gettin' off unbelievably easy.