A house divided?

[bernee51]

Whether there is a 'true christian' denomination has been discussed elswhere.

However, in Matthew 12:25, Jesus is reported to have said: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand." (KJV)

Is this an absolute principle and does this principle apply without exception? If so, what does that say about Christianity? Certainly it can be demonstrated by glancing at a roster of various denominations and sects within christianity that it can be said to be a ‘house divided against itself’.

Even in the microcosm of this forum, christian theists rarely find themselves in agreement on all issues, and any specific church’s position can vary on important issues according to whom you ask.

With this in mind, and considering the absolute nature of the principle ascribed to Jesus in Matthew 12:25, what does this say about Christianity as a whole?

[Sleepy]

I think you are perfectly valid in applying this to the church. A church that does not show its own members love and respect is hardly going to be sustainable. Heck this would even be in direct contradiction to Jesus teachings and as such would be sinful anyway.

The difference here is wherever you see disagreement, so long as this is done in love and respect so that differences can be worked through, the kingdom is not in civil war but rather in healthy discourse.

What MUST be given, in addition to the love and respect, is acceptance...even in the face of the fact that the differences may be irreconcilable.

I think thats the best way of illustrating your well pointed out issue for the church. Too many Christians are so wrapped up with their own opinions and showing what Jesus taught, they forget that they are firstly supposed to reflect who Jesus was. I am sure you have seen examples of this on these forums countless times and on their behalf I humbly apologize.

Mahatma Gandhi expressed it this way..."I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Hinduism comes from a background of not being a religion of conversion. This stems from the doctrine of ahimsa.

You could write a sermon on it, there would of course be certain logistical difficulties but as you suggested, Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'.

[bernee51]

... Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'.

Speak for yourself. I am not in your boat. I am not a sinner in that I do not know of any god against who's laws I have sinned.

Far from perfect I may be, but sinner I am not.

[FiredUp4jesus]

... Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'.

Speak for yourself. I am not in your boat. I am not a sinner in that I do not know of any god against who's laws I have sinned.

Far from perfect I may be, but sinner I am not.

Believe what you want, but you are definately a sinner. Denying God is a sin. A BIG one.

[Sleepy]

Tut tut bernee... be careful what you take to heart... read what I said again and allow me to make it clearer for you.

'Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'

I dont see you qualifying yourself for that statement anywhere. Gosh we are quick to take offense aren't we.

[bernee51]

Tut tut bernee... be careful what you take to heart... read what I said again and allow me to make it clearer for you.

'Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'

I dont see you qualifying yourself for that statement anywhere. Gosh we are quick to take offense aren't we.

My apologies. I have had TOO many christians, when using the pronoun WE, talk not about the christian group but about humanity in general. The post prior to your's is a perfect example.

[bernee51]

... Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'.

Speak for yourself. I am not in your boat. I am not a sinner in that I do not know of any god against who's laws I have sinned.

Far from perfect I may be, but sinner I am not.

Believe what you want, but you are definately a sinner. Denying God is a sin. A BIG one.

It is not a matter of belief but non-belief. Thankfully the god you believe you sin against does not exist in my worldview. Your god does not exist. Nor does Zeus, Odin, Ahura Mazda or any other you care to name.

[Sleepy]

Tut tut bernee... be careful what you take to heart... read what I said again and allow me to make it clearer for you.

'Christians would be good to remember to accept each other, warts and all, as we are all 'sinners in the same boat'

I dont see you qualifying yourself for that statement anywhere. Gosh we are quick to take offense aren't we.

My apologies. I have had TOO many christians, when using the pronoun WE, talk not about the christian group but about humanity in general. The post prior to your's is a perfect example.

For what it is worth, I apologize for those Christians who have not displayed to you the nature of Christ by their actions.

[melikio]

For what it is worth, I apologize for those Christians who have not displayed to you the nature of Christ by their actions.

While I understand your sentiment, I don't see where/how you can apologize on behalf of God (or other human beings); it is virtually meaningless.

That would be like one single Republican or Democrat, apologizing for ALL that a particular Presidential Administration has done.

I would rather say, that I am thankful to those who have shown me love and compassion as a human being, and commend those who have purposed to show the same to others.

It doesn't take reading and memorizing thousands of words and honoring numerous traditions to be/do exactly what is good for other human beings. In fact, I think people tend to be focused upon many more things than they ultimately need to be, in order for Christianity (and other religions) to be meaningful and worthwhile.

In many cases, to many, religion is nearly meaningless and sports a "complexity" which is often disproportionate to its intrinsic value. That is, it is often analogous to the difference between merely saying, "I love you.", and actually "showing-consistently" the love that would be claimed.

If "Christianity" becomes divided or falls completely, it would likely mean that "love" has been totally extracted from its overall meaning.

As it is, in this present era, all Christians have the opportunity to make their religion truly helpful and meaningful (through the showing of, and promotion of "love"; 1Cor13). Apart from that, I don't see how people will take the stories, admonishments and even certain moral/social traditions to heart, over time; at least not in any way that truly benefits mankind.

Even the Bible admits that religion apart from REAL love, is ultimately meaningless (in the most practical sense). I've somehow always sensed that is true.

-Mel-

[FiredUp4jesus]

For what it is worth, I apologize for those Christians who have not displayed to you the nature of Christ by their actions.

While I understand your sentiment, I don't see where/how you can apologize on behalf of God (or other human beings); it is virtually meaningless.

That would be like one single Republican or Democrat, apologizing for ALL that a particular Presidential Administration has done.

I would rather say, that I am thankful to those who have shown me love and compassion as a human being, and commend those who have purposed to show the same to others.

It doesn't take reading and memorizing thousands of words and honoring numerous traditions to be/do exactly what is good for other human beings. In fact, I think people tend to be focused upon many more things than they ultimately need to be, in order for Christianity (and other religions) to be meaningful and worthwhile.

In many cases, to many, religion is nearly meaningless and sports a "complexity" which is often disproportionate to its intrinsic value. That is, it is often analogous to the difference between merely saying, "I love you.", and actually "showing-consistently" the love that would be claimed.

If "Christianity" becomes divided or falls completely, it would likely mean that "love" has been totally extracted from its overall meaning.

As it is, in this present era, all Christians have the opportunity to make their religion truly helpful and meaningful (through the showing of, and promotion of "love"; 1Cor13). Apart from that, I don't see how people will take the stories, admonishments and even certain moral/social traditions to heart, over time; at least not in any way that truly benefits mankind.

Even the Bible admits that religion apart from REAL love, is ultimately meaningless (in the most practical sense). I've somehow always sensed that is true.

-Mel-

Amen to that! If you don't have love, you don't have much of anything!

[Sleepy]

There was a mission done by YWAM a good number of years ago now where a group of young people went around the middle eastern countries appologising for the terrible atrocities and needless slaughter done during the crusades.

It touched the hearts of thousands and opened many eyes to the real message of Jesus which was not proud but rather gave meaning to the words humility and love by their actions not just by their words. The fact that westerners travelled to their nations to say sorry said more about the love of Jesus than any sermon could ever do.

Tell me I am foolish to say sorry all you like. Meaningless? No, far from it.