Calvin

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RightReason
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Post #1

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to post 424 by PinSeeker]
Calvin is motivated more by hatred than truth.

Sure, hatred of "violence" done to God's Word. That's a good thing. Yes, he and the rest of the Reformers hated the way Catholicism had ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots. I do, too. But Calvin loved his Catholic brethren, and I do, too.
Ripped Christianity from its Biblical roots? Wouldn’t that be what leaving Christ’s established Church and starting a new one be doing?
Calvin's hatred is of anything that would detract from God's glory, too.
So, you don’t think it detracts from God’s glory to usurp His Church? To speak on matters one has no authority to speak on? To reinterpret Sacred Scripture? To not trust Jesus and His command to listen to His Church?

I am going to post some excerpts from testimony of two guys who both went from Calvin to Catholicism. If you want to read their whole story, it’s very good.

*****


In particular, as a Protestant, I had always had vague notions that the earliest Christians were essentially the same as Protestants today in theology and style of worship. The Re-“formation� was, I thought, all about re-“forming� Christianity so that it got back to the original Christianity bequeathed to us by Christ, removing from it all the superstitious and silly doctrines and practice imposed upon it in the Middle Ages by the Catholic Church. I soon found that these vague notions I held about the early Church could not have been more erroneous.


As I read these detailed summaries of the beliefs of the Fathers of the Church, I was startled in particular to find in them all the essential elements of contemporary Catholicism in embryonic form. Moreover, this mustard seed of the Catholic Church did not become visible a couple hundred years after Christ, but was present in the earliest recorded Christian writings, some predating or contemporaneous with what we have good reason to believe was the time that the books of the Bible were still being written! In brief, the earliest Church was the Catholic Church.


The area of doctrine that struck me most forcefully was the insistence of the early Fathers (particularly St. Ignatius and St. Polycarp, and even into the period of the apologists Tertullian and St. Irenaeus) on obedience in matters of faith and doctrine to the bishops and the centrality of Tradition (faithfully transmitted to us by the bishops) in the codification of Christian doctrine. Tertullian and Irenaeus were particularly forceful to me in showing that sola Scriptura (as it is understood and firmly believed by central figures in the Protestant Reformation) was a notion foreign to early Christians. Once I saw this in the Fathers, I was shocked to find strong support of it in Scripture.

I was even surprised to find early insistence by some Fathers upon Peter’s primacy as the Prince of the Apostles and the necessary submission to his successor as the chief steward of the authentic Faith. From this source, I thought, all other Catholic doctrines necessarily derive. For even if we saw no other Catholic doctrine present in the early period, save the necessity of believing the faith transmitted by the Pope, that would be sufficient. It is obvious that the popes have preached the Catholic Faith, and thus the Faith the early Christians would have today is authentically found only in the Roman Catholic Church. Of course, we find evidence for a broad range of uniquely Catholic beliefs and practices in the early Church, not just the doctrines involving Tradition and submission to the hierarchy, but my area of interest in philosophy was (and is) epistemology — that is, a study of what we know and how we know it — and seeing this point strongly pushed me toward Catholicism.


Prior to the actual decision to convert, I wanted to make sure I was not being hasty. I began reviewing many of my old theological sources to see if I had forgotten about central objections to Catholicism that I had not been particularly interested in during my youth. For instance, I read a lot of Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion, trying to find some argument against the Catholic Church he was leaving. I also reviewed the works of Van Til, whose apologetic method was supposed to prove the Calvinist form of Christianity distinctly. Both left me very unimpressed. I turned to two Protestant apologetics websites that I had found useful in my youth and, looking over their arguments against Catholicism, I found the websites’ arguments to be easily responded to in light of the research I had done into Catholicism.


When one is convinced, as I was at this time, that one’s salvation is an assured thing as long as one “has faith,� then it is easy to rationalize one’s own particular sins as a necessary and uninteresting consequence of the human condition that should be generally avoided, but not with any urgency. It was not as though, I had thought, my salvation depended upon avoiding sin. It rested instead upon the genuineness of my faith and the sincerity with which I adhered to my Protestant faith. Though the false and dangerous part of this theology did not sink in while I was under my parents’ supervision, I became much more rebellious in college. I began to go to parties often. This seems like a benign part of college life to many, but this was a very bad and dangerous phase of my life that, as sin often does, made me very miserable and blinded me to the specific cause or nature of my suffering.


Yet Calvinism excused my sin as something God Himself did not see, since, so I believed, the righteousness of Christ had been imputed to me because of my genuine faith, covering over my sins so that He was blind to them, at least insofar as my salvation was concerned. My conscience naturally reproved the guilt of my actions, and yet I found in Reformation theology a rationalization of the guilt that prevented any serious and genuine reformation of my life.


https://chnetwork.org/story/from-calvin ... an-besong/










I was raised a Presbyterian, the Church that prides itself on Calvinist origins, but I didn’t care much about denominations. My Church practiced a pared-down, Bible-focused, born-again spirituality shared by most Evangelicals. I went to a Christian college and then a seminary where I found the same attitude. Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians and Charismatics worshiped and studied side-by-side, all committed to the Bible but at odds on how to interpret it. But our differences didn’t bother us. Disagreements over sacraments, Church structures, and authority were less important to us than a personal relationship with Christ and fighting the Catholic Church. This is how we understood our common debt to the Reformation.


Strangely, mastering Calvin didn’t lead me anywhere I expected. To begin with, I decided that I really didn’t like Calvin. I found him proud, judgmental and unyielding. But more importantly, I discovered that Calvin upset my Evangelical view of history. I had always assumed a perfect continuity between the Early Church, the Reformation and my Church. The more I studied Calvin, however, the more foreign he seemed, the less like Protestants today. This, in turn, caused me to question the whole Evangelical storyline: Early Church – Reformation – Evangelical Christianity, with one seamless thread running straight from one to the other. But what if Evangelicals really weren’t faithful to Calvin and the Reformation? The seamless thread breaks. And if it could break once, between the Reformation and today, why not sooner, between the Early Church and the Reformation? Was I really sure the thread had held even that far?


Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic. Although he rejected the authority of Rome, there were things about the Catholic faith he never thought about leaving. He took for granted that the Church should have an interpretive authority, a sacramental liturgy and a single, unified faith.


These discoveries faced me with important questions. Why should Calvin treat these “Catholic things� with such seriousness? Was he right in thinking them so important? And if so, was he justified in leaving the Catholic Church? What did these discoveries teach me about Protestantism? How could my Church claim Calvin as a founder, and yet stray so far from his views? Was the whole Protestant way of doing theology doomed to confusion and inconsistency?

Calvin was a second-generation Reformer, twenty-six years younger than Martin Luther (1483-1546). This meant that by the time he encountered the Reformation, it had already split into factions. In Calvin’s native France, there was no royal support for Protestantism and no unified leadership. Lawyers, humanists, intellectuals, artisans and craftsman read Luther’s writings, as well as the Scriptures, and adapted whatever they liked.

His first request to the city council was to impose a common confession of faith (written by Calvin) and to force all citizens to affirm it.

Calvin’s most important contribution to Geneva was the establishment of the Consistory – a sort of ecclesiastical court- to judge the moral and theological purity of his parishioners. He also persuaded the council to enforce a set of “Ecclesiastical Ordinances� that defined the authority of the Church, stated the religious obligations of the laity, and imposed an official liturgy. Church attendance was mandatory. Contradicting the ministers was outlawed as blasphemy. Calvin’s Institutes would eventually be declared official doctrine.


Calvin’s lifelong goal was to gain the right to excommunicate “unworthy� Church members. The city council finally granted this power in 1555 when French immigration and local scandal tipped the electorate in his favor. Calvin wielded it frequently


In 1551, Bolsec, a physician and convert to Protestantism, entered Geneva and attended a lecture on theology. The topic was Calvin’s doctrine of predestination, the teaching that God predetermines the eternal fate of every soul. Bolsec, who believed firmly in “Scripture alone� and “faith alone,� did not like what he heard. He thought it made God into a tyrant. When he stood up to challenge Calvin’s views, he was arrested and imprisoned.

What makes Bolsec’s case interesting is that it quickly evolved into a referendum on Church authority and the interpretation of Scripture. Bolsec, just like most Evangelicals today, argued that he was a Christian, that he had the Holy Spirit and that, therefore, he had as much right as Calvin to interpret the Bible. He promised to recant if Calvin would only prove his doctrine from the Scriptures. But Calvin would have none of it. He ridiculed Bolsec as a trouble maker (Bolsec generated a fair amount of public sympathy), rejected his appeal to Scripture, and called on the council to be harsh. He wrote privately to a friend that he wished Bolsec were “rotting in a ditch.�2


While he rejected Rome’s claim to authority, he made striking claims for his own authority. He taught that the “Reformed� pastors were successors to the prophets and apostles, entrusted with the task of authoritative interpretation of the Scriptures


If Calvin’s ideas on Church authority were a surprise to me, his thoughts on the sacraments were shocking. Unlike Evangelicals, who treat the theology of the sacraments as one of the “non-essentials,� Calvin thought they were of the utmost importance.


Calvin understood baptism in much the same way. He never taught the Evangelical doctrine that one is “born again� through personal conversion. Instead, he associated regeneration with baptism and taught that to neglect baptism was to refuse salvation


Studying Calvin raised important questions about my Evangelical identity. How could I reject as unimportant issues that my own founder considered essential? I had blithely and confidently dismissed baptism, Eucharist, and the Church itself as “merely symbolic,� “purely spiritual� or, ultimately, unnecessary. In seminary, too, I found an environment where professors disagreed entirely over these issues and no one cared! With no final court of appeal, we had devolved into a “lowest common denominator� theology.



I realized instead that Calvin was part of the problem. He had insisted on the importance of unity and authority, but had rejected any rational or consistent basis for that authority. He knew that Scripture totallyalone, Scripture interpreted by each individual conscience, was a recipe for disaster. But his own claim to authority was perfectly arbitrary. Whenever he was challenged, he simply appealed to his own conscience, or to his subjective experience, but he denied that right to Bolsec and others. As a result, Calvin became proud and censorious, brutal with his enemies, and intolerant of dissent. In all my reading of Calvin, I don’t recall him ever apologizing for a mistake or admitting an error.


It eventually occurred to me that Calvin’s attitude contrasted sharply with what I had found in the greatest Catholic theologians. Many of them were saints, recognized for their heroic charity and humility. Furthermore, I knew from reading them, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila and St. Francis de Sales, that they denied any personal authority to define doctrine. They deferred willingly, even joyfully, to the authority of Pope and council. They could maintain the biblical ideal of doctrinal unity (1 Corinthians 1:10), without claiming to be the source of that unity.

These saints also challenged the stereotypes about Catholics that I had grown up with. Evangelicals frequently assert that they are the only ones to have “a personal relationship with Christ.� Catholics, with their rituals and institutions, are supposed to be alienated from Christ and Scripture. I found instead men and women who were single-minded in their devotion to Christ and inebriated with His grace.

In the end, I began to see that everything good about Evangelicalism was already present in the Catholic Church – the warmth and devotion of Evangelical spirituality, the love of Scripture and even, to some extent, the Evangelical tolerance for diversity. Catholicism has always tolerated schools of thought, various theologies and different liturgies. But unlike Evangelicalism, the Catholic Church has a logical and consistent way to distinguish the essential from the non-essential. The Church’s Magisterium, established by Christ (Matthew 16:18; Matthew 28:18-20), has provided that source of unity that Calvin sought to replace.

One of the most satisfying things about my discovery of the Catholic Church is that it fully satisfied my desire for historical rootedness.

http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/0 ... -catholic/


What do you make of these two men’s personal faith journey? Do you see the problem they both found in accepting John Calvin or any other subsequent “Reformer�?

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Post #11

Post by PinSeeker »

[Replying to post 9 by RightReason]

LOL! Meh. You know, at the end of the day, sometimes all you can do is shake your head and walk away. The Spirit will do what He will do; the wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so it is with the Spirit. Grace and peace to you, Reason.

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Post #12

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[Replying to post 11 by PinSeeker]

For you PinSeeker more G.K. Chesterton because he says what I desire to say, but much better in regards to your posts . . .


Regarding the Catholic Church:

***

Now there is no other corporate mind in the world that is thus on the watch to prevent minds from going wrong. The policeman comes too late, when he tries to prevent men from going wrong. The doctor comes too late, for he only comes to lock up a madman, not to advise a sane man on how not to go mad. And all other sects and schools are inadequate for the purpose. This is not because each of them may not contain a truth, but precisely because each of them does contain a truth; and is content to contain a truth. None of the others really pretends to contain the truth. None of the others, that is, really pretends to be looking out in all directions at once. The Church is not merely armed against the heresies of the past or even of the present, but equally against those of the future, that may be the exact opposite of those of the present. Catholicism is not ritualism; it may in the future be fighting some sort of superstitious and idolatrous exaggeration of ritual. Catholicism is not asceticism; it has again and again in the past repressed fanatical and cruel exaggerations of asceticism. Catholicism is not mere mysticism; it is even now defending human reason against the mere mysticism of the Pragmatists. Thus, when the world went Puritan in the seventeenth century, the Church was charged with pushing charity to the point of sophistry, with making everything easy with the laxity of the confessional. Now that the world is not going Puritan but Pagan, it is the Church that is everywhere protesting against a Pagan laxity in dress or manners. It is doing what the Puritans wanted done when it is really wanted. In all probability, all that is best in Protestantism will only survive in Catholicism; and in that sense all Catholics will still be Puritans when all Puritans are Pagans.


It knows there were many other Gospels besides the Four Gospels, and that the others were only eliminated by the authority of the Catholic Church. It knows there are many other evolutionary theories besides the Darwinian theory; and that the latter is quite likely to be eliminated by later science. It does not, in the conventional phrase, accept the conclusions of science, for the simple reason that science has not concluded. To conclude is to shut up; and the man of science is not at all likely to shut up. It does not, in the conventional phrase, believe what the Bible says, for the simple reason that the Bible does not say anything. You cannot put a book in the witness-box and ask it what it really means.


Every moment increases for us the moral necessity for such an immortal mind. We must have something that will hold the four corners of the world still, while we make our social experiments or build our Utopias. For instance, we must have a final agreement, if only on the truism of human brotherhood, that will resist some reaction of human brutality. Nothing is more likely just now than that the corruption of representative government will lead to the rich breaking loose altogether, and trampling on all the traditions of equality with mere pagan pride. We must have the truisms everywhere recognized as true. We must prevent mere reaction and the dreary repetition of the old mistakes. We must make the intellectual world safe for democracy. But in the conditions of modern mental anarchy, neither that nor any other ideal is safe. Just as Protestants appealed from priests to the Bible, and did not realize that the Bible also could be questioned, so republicans appealed from kings to the people, and did not realize that the people also could be defied. There is no end to the dissolution of ideas, the destruction of all tests of truth, that has become possible since men abandoned the attempt to keep a central and civilized Truth, to contain all truths and trace out and refute all errors. Since then, each group has taken one truth at a time and spent the time in turning it into a falsehood. We have had nothing but movements; or in other words, monomanias. But the Church is not a movement but a meeting-place; the trysting-place of all the truths in the world.

https://www.chesterton.org/why-i-am-a-catholic/

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Post #13

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RightReason wrote: [Replying to brianbbs67]

Christ established no church.

Well then you better tell Him that . . .

“Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I build my church�

“If I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God's household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.� 1 Timothy 3:15

“For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church, because we are members of His body� – Ephesians 5:29-30

“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.� –Matthew 18:17

The big question everyone has to ask is, Does Paul supersede Christ?
Or is the big question to ask, am I superseding Christ? Am I applying my own personal interpretation? Am I picking and choosing? Do I know better than Jesus Christ?
If not, then forget the misunderstanding of Paul and follow Christ. Its that simple. Do as christ did. What did he do?
So, your claim is Christendom got it all wrong and from the beginning? Your claim is those who were actually alive when Jesus walked the earth, witnessed His miracles first hand, heard His words first hand, missed it, but thousands of years later someone came along and recognized Paul as a traitor and so takes the Bible that was given to us by Paul and the Church and dismisses the parts he doesn’t like and re interprets the whole thing how he thinks it should be. Yes, that sounds logical.
The early christians all worshipped at synagogue or temple in the case of gentiles is some areas, homes. The word church was literally assembly like in the OT. So, the early christians got it right. But after the Jerusalem was destroyed and as apostles died off, the roman and grecian philosophies began to emerge dominate. Many very early church leaders just disappeared. Rome began to enforce this under the pain of death. Follow as Pope said or suffer and die. Many chose to suffer and die. Others, the majority, conformed and 1800 or so years later we have what we have. A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least. I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me. You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.

Sure the Goyim were welcomed in if they wanted to follow God, but they were expected to slowly learn Moses every Sabbath. That's why they were only given 4 rules to follow in the beginning which eliminated their temple prostitution habits. Adultery to God.

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Post #14

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brianbbs67 wrote: The early christians all worshipped at synagogue or temple in the case of gentiles is some areas, homes. The word church was literally assembly like in the OT. So, the early christians got it right.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
brianbbs67 wrote: Rome began to enforce this under the pain of death. Follow as Pope said or suffer and die. Many chose to suffer and die. Others, the majority, conformed...
Yes. And this kind of thing continued; even becoming political and enterprising. We recall the "indulgences" of the medieval period, where folks could buy their deceased relatives out of "purgatory." These abominations and their like -- certainly not Rock-like, and even continuing today in more subtle ways -- were what inspired Martin Luther, good Catholic that he was, to nail his ninety-five theses to the Castle Church door in Wittenberg in the 16th century (1517). Luther challenged the authority and office of the Pope by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge (which it is), and correctly opposing sacerdotalism by considering all Christians to be a holy priesthood. The irony is that Luther was teaching the same thing Peter himself, supposedly the first Pope, taught, that Christ Himself was/is the Rock. And I feel sure that would be his personal testimony concerning his move from Catholicism to protesting against it; Martin Luther did say himself, "All who agree with the confession of Peter (in Matthew 16:16) are Peters themselves setting a sure foundation.�
brianbbs67 wrote: ...and 1800 or so years later we have what we have. A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least.
Right. There is only one Rock, never-changing, never blown about by the wind like chaff: Christ Jesus. Even Peter, supposed to be the Rock by the Roman Catholic Church -- for all the good he did in the advance of the Gospel -- was rebuked for his sin, by Paul and others.
brianbbs67 wrote: I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me.
Dude. Awesome. Yes, we lean not on our own understanding or that of other men, but only on God Himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We strive with each other and not alone, of course, but our Ultimate Authority is our triune God.
brianbbs67 wrote: You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.
Absolutely. True Jews (Romans 2:28-29). God's Israel, which contains Jew and Gentile alike; there is no difference for those who are in Christ Jesus. In this way, all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

Grace and peace to you, brianbbs67... and to anyone else here.

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Post #15

Post by brianbbs67 »

PinSeeker wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: The early christians all worshipped at synagogue or temple in the case of gentiles is some areas, homes. The word church was literally assembly like in the OT. So, the early christians got it right.
Wholeheartedly agreed.
brianbbs67 wrote: Rome began to enforce this under the pain of death. Follow as Pope said or suffer and die. Many chose to suffer and die. Others, the majority, conformed...
Yes. And this kind of thing continued; even becoming political and enterprising. We recall the "indulgences" of the medieval period, where folks could buy their deceased relatives out of "purgatory." These abominations and their like -- certainly not Rock-like, and even continuing today in more subtle ways -- were what inspired Martin Luther, good Catholic that he was, to nail his ninety-five theses to the Castle Church door in Wittenberg in the 16th century (1517). Luther challenged the authority and office of the Pope by teaching that the Bible is the only source of divinely revealed knowledge (which it is), and correctly opposing sacerdotalism by considering all Christians to be a holy priesthood. The irony is that Luther was teaching the same thing Peter himself, supposedly the first Pope, taught, that Christ Himself was/is the Rock. And I feel sure that would be his personal testimony concerning his move from Catholicism to protesting against it; Martin Luther did say himself, "All who agree with the confession of Peter (in Matthew 16:16) are Peters themselves setting a sure foundation.�
brianbbs67 wrote: ...and 1800 or so years later we have what we have. A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least.
Right. There is only one Rock, never-changing, never blown about by the wind like chaff: Christ Jesus. Even Peter, supposed to be the Rock by the Roman Catholic Church -- for all the good he did in the advance of the Gospel -- was rebuked for his sin, by Paul and others.
brianbbs67 wrote: I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me.
Dude. Awesome. Yes, we lean not on our own understanding or that of other men, but only on God Himself in the persons of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We strive with each other and not alone, of course, but our Ultimate Authority is our triune God.
brianbbs67 wrote: You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.
Absolutely. True Jews (Romans 2:28-29). God's Israel, which contains Jew and Gentile alike; there is no difference for those who are in Christ Jesus. In this way, all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

Grace and peace to you, brianbbs67... and to anyone else here.

Peace to you also. Eph. 2 puts it best

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

What was the covenant of Israel ? Moses. But really evidence shows it goes back to Adam and Noah and Abraham. Like the OT says in Exodus, Duet., Numbers, and other places, there was to be one law for Israel and those who sojourned with them. All were the same to God.

As Israel grumbled and wanted to hear no more directly from God than the decalogue. Moses and Aaron and sons heard the Lord. They were also among the leaders that saw the Lord and ate and drank. Remember there are 2 basic aspects to the law. Following it gives blessing. And not following,a curse. This is what YHVH outlined when He gave it.

Christ changed none of this. He called for repentance and gave a way for divorced Israel to again rejoin covenant with God.

"For truly I say unto you, not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all the law AND Prophets is fulfilled." The prophets have not all been for fulfilled nor Have "heaven and earth passed"

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Post #16

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to brianbbs67]

quote]The early christians all worshipped at synagogue or temple in the case of gentiles is some areas, homes. The word church was literally assembly like in the OT. So, the early christians got it right. [/quote]

Yes, they did. They formed a visible church, with a hierarchical structure, who they recognized as authoritative. Others took their matters to the Church. And when they did the Church had the final say.

But after the Jerusalem was destroyed and as apostles died off, the roman and grecian philosophies began to emerge dominate. Many very early church leaders just disappeared.

Well, not the next leader appointed after Peter, St. Linus, or the Pope appointed after him, St. Cletus, or the successor after Cletus, St. Clement I. I think you get my point.

Rome began to enforce this under the pain of death.

*******

No account of foolishness, misguided zeal, or cruelty by Catholics can undo the divine foundation of the Church.


What must be grasped is that the Church contains within itself all sorts of sinners and knaves, and some of them obtain positions of responsibility. Paul and Christ himself warned us that there would be a few ravenous wolves among Church leaders (Acts 20:29; Matt. 7:15).


Protestants, who also tried to root out and punish those they regarded as heretics. Luther and Calvin both endorsed the right of the state to protect society by purging false religion. In fact, Calvin not only banished from Geneva those who did not share his views, he permitted and in some cases ordered others to be executed for “heresy� (e.g., Jacques Gouet, tortured and beheaded in 1547; and Michael Servetus, burned at the stake in 1553). In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant. An even greater number were forced to flee to the Continent. We point this out to show that both sides understood the Bible to require the use of penal sanctions to root out false religion from Christian society.

https://www.catholic.com/tract/the-inquisition


A house divided where everyone is partially wrong, at the least.

The Catholic Church is not divided in her teachings. She is the only Church who has a worldwide unified leader and message. She is in every continent in the world, teaching the same thing in every single country. Unlike, the Christian churches you are referring to – the “church of Christ� down the street may be drastically different than the “church of Christ� a block over. Which one is right? They do not have unified teaching, nor do they have the power and authority given to Christ’s established Church.

I don't interpret the scripture by my self, the Spirit of God guides me.
Again, is this Spirit of God speaking to you in an actual audible voice? If not, then how can you be sure your own persona feelings, preconceptions, and delusions aren’t clouding your understanding? And what happens when you are unclear? When you aren’t getting a strong signal from the Holy Spirit and you are confused on what the right answer is? What happens when a fellow truth seeking Christian you respect thinks Scripture is saying some different from what you think? Where do you go then?


Scripture tells us to test all things. What are you testing your interpretation against?


You have to realize Christ came not to the masses but only to the lost sheep of Israel. Not to make them christians but to give them a way back into covenant with God. Christ was making them Hebrew again.

And He established One, Holy, Catholic, Visible, and Authoritative Church to shepherd His flock. How soon we forget His words to Peter, “Feed my sheep�. Did Christ say after the original 12 die, my sheep will no longer need an earthly shepherd? Not at all. Scripture itself shows the Apostles passing on this appointment, less His sheep be scattered – which is exactly what happened when some severed themselves from His Church.


There is no way around it, your and PinSeeker’s notion of church simply doesn’t cut it. It is unscriptural and illogical.

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Post #17

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RightReason wrote: There is no way around it, your and PinSeeker’s notion of church simply doesn’t cut it. It is unscriptural and illogical.
Two things:
1. As for "doesn't cut it," and "unscriptural," that's merely your opinion.
2. As for "illogical," it's not illogical at all, but rather merely incompatible with your view.

Thank you, brianbbs67.

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Post #18

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to PinSeeker]
RightReason wrote:


There is no way around it, your and PinSeeker’s notion of church simply doesn’t cut it. It is unscriptural and illogical.

Two things:
1. As for "doesn't cut it," and "unscriptural," that's merely your opinion.
It’s not my opinion. It is the opinion of Christ’s 2000 year old church.
2. As for "illogical," it's not illogical at all, but rather merely incompatible with your view.
When properly examined, it is illogical. The “all I need is Jesus� theology is simply a noble effort to attempt to live by a more stripped-down faith without all the fluff. However, it resulted in a throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Believing that all we need is Jesus is simply an incomplete theology and fails to understand Christianity and what it is that God teaches us about Himself through Sacred Scripture and His Church. It dismisses the understanding of why Christ established His Church. God would not have extablished a useless church, but your understanding of church renders it a useless entity.

All Christian churches that split off from the Catholic Church are simply some form of Protestantism. Protestant was obviously derived from Martin Luther’s protest. So, logically one should ask, how, in the 16th century, could some guy suddenly decide he didn’t like the church so he was going to make a new one of his own? We need to ask, what gave Martin Luther the right to pick the beliefs he wanted to pick and to abandon the rest? It makes no sense to think that is OK. Christ’s Church had authority, because He said it does. One needs to know history to know Christ’s Church. And as the saying goes, “To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant�

So, your view isn't merely incompatible with mine, it is incompatible with Truth. Not having One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Authoritative Church means we all are our own little churches, often being swayed by feelings, emotioins, opinions, deceptive influence, etc. It certainly would render the words of Scripture that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth meaningless. I prefer to believe in the meaning of God's infallible Word.

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Post #19

Post by PinSeeker »

RightReason wrote: It’s not my opinion. It is the opinion of Christ’s 2000 year old church.
It is absolutely your opinion. Because it's the opinion of an institution of man that you belong to, of course. But nevertheless, your opinion.
RightReason wrote: When properly examined, it is illogical.
In your (and your organization's) opinion. See above.
RightReason wrote: So, your view isn't merely incompatible with mine, it is incompatible with Truth.
Nope. Just incompatible with yours. See above.
RightReason wrote: Not having One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Authoritative Church means we all are our own little churches, often being swayed by feelings, emotions, opinions, deceptive influence, etc.
I wholeheartedly agree with your position on feelings, emotions, opinions, deceptive influence, etc, ("the heart is deceitful above all things; who can understand it?").

And I wholeheartedly agree that there is one holy, catholic, apostolic church; we just disagree on the nature of it and who (Who) is its head (Head). There's really no need to discuss it further, because we've been round and round on it and neither one of us is moving from where we are. But I would say again that what Paul says in Ephesians 2, as I have said, is very helpful... and also incontrovertible:
  • "...through Him (Jesus) we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit." (Ephesians 2; emphasis added)
As if that is not enough, we do well to read on in Paul's letter:
  • "Christ also is the head of the church, He Himself being the Savior of the body." (Ephesians 5:23)
* Christ -- not Peter; Peter, while possessing a primacy in the fact that he is among the apostles and prophets, is with us a fellow citizen and part of the whole building -- is the Head (corner stone) of the church.

* The Church is spiritual -- "we have our access in one Spirit," and "we are being fitted together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit" -- which is not to diminish the fact that it is literal, but as of now invisible to us because only God sees the heart; therefore we do not yet know in full who is in it or will be in it... except to say, "those who are or will be born again and therefore in Christ."
RightReason wrote: In addition It certainly would render the words of Scripture that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth meaningless.
Not so at all, but spiritual. And, as I said, literal, too, but not woodenly so; the literal is a work in progress and will be made so in full when Jesus returns. But we can live now as though this is already the case; this is the "now-and-not-yet" aspect of the Gospel.
RightReason wrote: I prefer to believe in the meaning of God's infallible Word.
Right; I would say the same. However, you say this, but you argue contrary to Paul; albeit inadvertently. I say again that you are more than welcome to your opinion of the meaning of God's infallible word. One great Day, Jesus will set everything to rights. Grace and peace to you in the name of Christ Jesus.

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Post #20

Post by PinSeeker »

Martin Luther did not "create a church of his own." Nor did any of the reformers; they merely sought to restore the Church universal to its rightful place...
  • -- the place where it really always was, it's just that certain folks were responsible for misleading, albeit inadvertently, believers, so the right word is 'redirect' --
...to its true Head (Ephesians 5:23), Christ Himself.

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