Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

[shnarkle]

Did God raise up Pharaoh for the wrong purpose, or was magnifying his own glory a sufficient purpose for raising up Pharaoh? (Romans 9:17)

How is is possible for Pharaoh to have repented and allowed Israel to depart in peace, if he was raised up for this purpose?

God actively hardened Pharaoh's heart that he might judge e.g. "lay his hand upon" Egypt. Could Pharaoh have overcome God's hardening of his heart? How?

The king's heart is in the hands of the LORD, as the rivers of water, he turns it whithersoever he will Proverbs 21:1

There is no question that Pharaoh hardened his own heart as is indicated in Ex. 8:15,32. Pharaoh is a responsible moral agent, but this doesn't answer the question of whether or not it was possible for Pharaoh to soften his own heart and repent despite God's will?

If Pharoah had repented of his sins and turned Israel free, how could God's word have been fulfilled?

Is it possible for sinful or even righteous man to thwart God's declared intent?

If he did this to Pharaoh, why wouldn't he do it to the rest of rebellious humanity?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by twobitsworth]

I don't interpret "God hardened his heart" as you seem to. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses our interpretation leads us to the conclusion that Pharoah still had free will, could at any point still have repented and was not predestined to rebell.

JW

Hardening one's heart seem to mean to strengthen his resolve or commitment to his course so if he had a free will, I would agree.

Yes, it makes me think of the English expression " a hardened criminal" ... regardless of who or what "hardened" him, he retains the option to renounce his life of crime, turn over a new leaf and live honestly. Being a "hardened" criminal this is less likely than say if he was new to crime but as a judge might tell him if he is caught and sentenced for his crimes, the choice was always his and he didn't change because he didn't want to.

Pharoah was we believed like that, hardened, thoroughly corrupted... not against his will but because of it!



JW

[ttruscott]

Moses was sent to Pharoah; Noah was sent to Nineveh. One repented; the other did not.

I think you meant to write jonah rather than Noah, no? I'm not so sure Jonah repented.

Arghhhhhh, Jonah for sure. I referred to the Ninevites repenting, not to Jonah.

[twobitsworth]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Here are a few passages to see if Pharaoh hardened his own heart or if God hardened Pharaoh's heart. have a look for yourself.....

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by twobitsworth]

My POSTS and links addresse the Jehovah's Witness understanding of these verses.

If you have nothing to add I wish you good day.


JW

INDEX


QUESTION How did God "harden" Pharoah's heart (Ex. 7:3, 4) ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 159#838159

Can a " hardened" heart change?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 552#951552

What is free will?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 976#870976

[polonius]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

The words in this bible passage are not confusing. .

No I don't think they are neither. In any case, I was just sharing what we believe they mean. You are of course free to disagree.

Have a nice day,

JW

RESPONSE: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

Do you really believe that this biblical teaching is divine guidance?

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

Do you really believe that this biblical teaching is divine guidance?

Can you explain the relevance of this comment to the OP? I was under the impression it was inviting an analysis of Romans 9.

I have no desire to deraille the thread.


JW

[polonius]

RESPONSE: "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)

Do you really believe that this biblical teaching is divine guidance?

Can you explain the relevance of this comment to the OP? I was under the impression it was inviting an analysis of Romans 9.

I have no desire to deraille the thread.


JW

RESPONSE: Then don't. The topic is in the thread's title.

Was Pharaoh under the sovereign control of God?

The answer is that the entire story is fictional. The first seven book of the Bible are just a story written apparently between 800 and 600 BC probably during the Babylonian Captivity.

From the on-line JPost

“The recent film Exodus, Gods and Kings had Ramesses the Great as the step-brother of Moses and the pharaoh of the Exodus. But there is nothing in the Egyptian records linking Ramesses to the Exodus, and indeed nothing at all in the records about the Israelites and their slavery, nothing about their escape into the Sinai after the plagues, nothing about the miraculous crossing of the Red Sea – nothing. So it is embarrassing for archaeologists to be asked who the pharaoh of the Exodus was. But it is a question that comes up every year before Passover, when we Jews celebrate our escape from Egyptian slavery into freedom.�

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 17 by polonius]

Whether it is fictional or factual, my understanding is the question at hand is what the writer meant. I cannot see the relevance of your point.

JW

[polonius]

[Replying to post 17 by polonius]

Whether it is fictional or factual, my understanding is the question at hand is what the writer meant. I cannot see the relevance of your point.

JW

RESPONSE: Then you should rethink your "understanding" and go by the plain meaning of the words used. In addition to the title of this thread, read what the author actually wrote. That's the point.

The thread suggests that not all scripture is "God breathed."

As is the case in the JW article: " Moses and Aaron Before Pharaoh | Bible Story - jw.org"

I like a good yarn. I just don't base my religious beliefs on them.

But , of course, some others may do so.

As Simon and Garfunkel sang, "A man believes what he wants to believe and disregards the rest."

[ttruscott]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Here are a few passages to see if Pharaoh hardened his own heart or if God hardened Pharaoh's heart. have a look for yourself.....

Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Exodus 7:13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

To harden one's own heart or someone else's heart is to firm up their resolve, their commitment to a decision. What was Pharaoh's resolve? To stop the Israelites leaving by killing them if necessary.

Why did his resolve weaken? He became afraid of YHWH with every new plague.

How did YHWH firm up his resolve? That HE removed Pharoah's fear of GODly retribution which allowed him to go forth with a renewed commitment against YHWH's people is the most obvious probability...but any suggestion HE forced Pharaoh to change his mind and attack the Israelites is a blatant misuse of the language and the tenor of the story.