Mystical Visions, Apparitions

[steveb1]

[LONG post to follow:]

I don't want to irritate anyone with this question, since it's pretty obvious that Catholics and Protestants have a very different view and experience of mystical experiences, revelations, apparitions and "visions". But I think it's an intriguing enough issue to merit at least some discussion.

Catholicism, of course, famously or infamously, claims many mystics, saints who are purportedly endowed with paranormal gifts, reports of visions of saints - especially Mary and Marian apparitions - and of Jesus (e.g., the Sacred Heart visions/revelations). It's important to realize that the RCC does not mandate that Catholics accept any such extra-biblical encounter as authentic and binding. That decision is left to the individual Catholic. The Church only goes so far as to declare an apparition free from fraud and/or doctrinal error, but it does not mandate devotion to any private revelation.

But it is clear that there has always been a deep and quite understandable clerical involvement in the great sites and shrines, such as Lourdes and Fatima, and the faithful have flocked to these locations and claim to have received physical, mental, and spiritual healing. This is an example of the Church not declaring any apparition as binding, but at the same time, encouraging legitimate devotion in the laity.

While not a Catholic or a Christian myself, I do "believe in miracles" and am quite satisfied, for instance, that Fatima was the real deal, but not a manifestation from God or the Virgin, which interpretation was a later Jesuit re-shaping of an originally raw, undomesticated series of mystical experiences of both the three children involved and of the crowds who were in their company. So - disclaimer - I do believe that rare, paranormal events do occur, frequently with a religious interpretation attached to them after the fact.

So, finally, my questions:

1) Why does Catholicism claim the bulk of reported mystics, mystical experiences, "paranormal saints", preternatural cures, private and public Marian apparitions, occasional Jesus apparitions, etc.?

2) On the principle that Protestants are no less sincere and devout than their Catholic peers, why does Protestantism have so few claims of apparitions, etc.? Of course, for most Protestants, Mary is not the Catholic Mary, so no normative Protestant would be likely to believe in Marian apparitions, and if s/he experienced such an event, might tend to blame the Devil or hallucination. But there are sporadic records of Protestants having visions and private revelations from Jesus, usually, of course, phrased and framed within the proper confines of Protestant theology - unless the content is "heretical", in which the experiencer, in venerable Reformationist tradition, could, if so desired, found a new church or sect based on the experience.

3) What is the purpose - for Christian faith - of post-biblical revelations, prophecies, miraculous healings, apparitions of Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc.?

One answer might be that the living God continues to manifest Himself to His people. "God is the God of the living", not the dead. So as long as a Christian person's claimed revelation, or a mass-witnessed apparition, does not violate the commonality of biblically-rooted "deposit of Christian faith", then why not? Why not continued communication and immediate communion with the living, loving God, including miracles, cures, visions and apparitions?

Another - and opposing - answer might be that the Christian God placed everything we need to know about salvation into the Bible (Protestants), or that He placed everything we need to know for salvation into the Bible and into its interpretive/protective "Tradition" (Catholics).
Because of that, any and all claims of new prophecy, new miracles, new heavenly manifestations in the sky, in churches, in bleeding statues, bloody Hosts, images imprinted on trees and windows, apparitions in grottoes, etc., must be rejected as extra-biblical/extra-Tradition illusions, delusions, hallucinations, pathologies...and perhaps, even as "works of the Devil".

So I'm directing these issues to anyone who is intrigued by the miraculous in the post-biblical Christian tradition. Even if one disbelieves in such things, still, I would be interested in their thoughts on the function - if any - in the Christian faith of the miraculous, its value, its dangers, its significance, its necessity or its arbitrariness.

[polonius]

Steven B1 posted:

Why does Catholicism claim the bulk of reported mystics, mystical experiences, "paranormal saints", preternatural cures, private and public Marian apparitions, occasional Jesus apparitions, etc.?

RESPONSE: It’s an attempt to convince or frighten its members into believing what they are told to believe or do.

The older Jewish scriptures used the phrase “Thus saith the Lord….�

Same story.

[dio9]

as for miracles visions and revelations its all about experience. In the words of SCOTUS , I paraphrase here ; if you see one you will know it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 10 by marco]

Yes you are right and I, getting my threads mixed up was wrong.

I apologise.

This odd idea would make Christ's advice : "Ask and it shall be given" fallacious, in that in post-apostolic times, miracles are mysterously verboten.

So may I ask, do you believe Christ's promise was absolute and unconditional?

[polonius]

This odd idea would make Christ's advice : "Ask and it shall be given" fallacious, in that in post-apostolic times, miracles are mysterously verboten.

RESPONSE: It didn't happen during Jesus's time either. Recall, Jesus prayed not to be executed.

Matthew:�Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. ..."

[polonius]

This odd idea would make Christ's advice : "Ask and it shall be given" fallacious, in that in post-apostolic times, miracles are mysterously verboten.

So may I ask, do you believe Christ's promise was absolute and unconditional?

RESPONSE: Not really. Test it. Pray for a winning lottery ticket this week.

[bluethread]

This odd idea would make Christ's advice : "Ask and it shall be given" fallacious, in that in post-apostolic times, miracles are mysterously verboten.

If one takes that as carte blanch, you would be correct. However, I believe it is just a less cumbersome way of saying, if you do not ask, will not be given, if you do not seek, you will not find, if you do not knock, it will not be opened. It is aspirational. Also, the verses that follow speak of good things being given, so there is a caveat. Just because one wants something does not mean one should expect to receive it. In fact one should be careful what one asks for, because one might get it.

[JehovahsWitness]

Perhaps they are not genuine but where is the statement of cessation? I believe there is not a single reference to this cessation anywhere in the Bible. Of course it would be the easiest of tasks to supply one if it exists. I know that you have an excellent reference source to back up any claim you make, so I await the confirmation.

I believe my earlier post provides a list of relevant texts.

Does the bible indicate the cessation of miraculous "gifts of the spirit"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 926#917926


JW

[polonius]

Perhaps they are not genuine but where is the statement of cessation? I believe there is not a single reference to this cessation anywhere in the Bible. Of course it would be the easiest of tasks to supply one if it exists. I know that you have an excellent reference source to back up any claim you make, so I await the confirmation.

I believe my earlier post provides a list of relevant texts.

Does the bible indicate the cessation of miraculous "gifts of the spirit"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 926#917926


JW

QUESTION: Are you counting your own posts as "relevant texts"?

[brianbbs67]

I fully believe that God still communicates and gives dreams and visions, as He said He would in the bible. In today's world, there would be few who would give ear to it if you told someone God had spoken or revealed something in a dream. The first to crie heresy would be your own church. Why would God stop revealing Himself?

[WPG12]

I think God constantly speaks, men just don't listen. God constantly inspires men, in all kinds of different ways, and his spirit speaks through them.

One example is music, to me Johnny cash is one of the best, the man in Black mourning for all those who died, believing the Lord was on their side.

There is a lot of truth in those songs, I don't think it really matters what type of music you like.

God does speak, men just don't listen.
And there is a lot of truth in it, it's just a matter of if you can hear those soft southern winds in those live oak trees, by the light of the radio by your bed.


I can still hear the soft Southern winds in the live oak trees
And those Williams boys they still mean a lot to me
Hank and Tennessee
I guess we're all gonna be what we're gonna be
So what do you do with good ole boys like me
Nothing makes a sound in the night like the wind does
But you ain't afraid if you're washed in the blood like I was
The smell of cape jasmine through the window screen
John R. and the Wolfman kept me company
By the light of the radio by my bed
With Thomas Wolfe whispering in my head


Cause it's midnight in Montgomery,
Just hear that whip-poor-will
See the stars light up the purple sky,
Feel that lonesome chill,
'Cause when the wind is right,
You'll hear his song,
Smell whisky in the air,
Midnight in Montgomery,
He's always singin' there,