Roman Catholic verses Orthodox Church - which is correct?

[polonius]

This question has arisen elsewhere and I'd be interested in readers views of this issue.

The (Western) Roman Catholic Church claims apostolic succession through the Apostle Peter. It claims infallibility (no errors) by way of ecumenical (general) councils and all ex cathedra papal teachings.

The (Eastern) Orthodox churches claim apostolic succession through one of the other Apostles and only the infallibility of their first 10 ecumenical councils and no infallibility of their reigning senior bishop.

Since the Eastern Churchs claims apostolic succession, their sacraments are considered valid by the Roman Catholic church, but Catholics are advised to seek out one of their own clergy and only use the Orthodox clergy when it is not possible to use Catholic clergy.

Interestingly, some of the Eastern Church have reunited with Rome in which case they are known as Eastern Rite Catholics. In doing so thy have had to agree to accept certain teaching not regarded as valid in the Orthodox Chuch such as the "stain theory" of original sin and the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Question: Am I in error here or are there other major differences in beliefs?

[Betho_BR]

This first article is a return to a very old discussion and is, as much as possible, didactic, impartial, and comprehensive in references, regarding the interpretation of the greeting word χαῖρε (chaire), the hapax legomenon κεχαριτωμένη (kecharitoméne), that is, the verbal aspect of this rare conjugation, Aktionsart, and the construction "μετὰ σοῦ" (with you) in Luke 1:28. We will consider as a background the Pauline theology described in the Roman letter as the initial source regarding the tabernacle in flesh (John 1:14), called Jesus. Is it included within the scope of the word "all" in the following verses: "For all have sinned" Rom 3:23 and "Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Rom 5:12. However, we already know that not everyone died according to the Scriptures, for example, Enoch and Elijah. Furthermore, we also know that the word "all" in Greek grammar allows for exclusions (John 1:17). Therefore, did the flesh and blood part of Jesus carry the sin that is in men born of women? From the birth of Jesus through the Spirit, the Holy, we must study His relationship with Mary in the cited verse.

καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν• χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ Luke 1:28 from NA28 Critical Text - Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece, 28th Revised Edition, edited by Barbara and Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Carlo M. Martini, and Bruce M. Metzger in cooperation with the Institute for New Testament Textual Research, Münster/Westphalia, © 2012 Deutsche

Interlinear: καὶ G2532: CONJ E εἰσελθὼν G1525: V-2AAP-NSM having entered πρὸς G4314: PREP to αὐτὴν G846: P-ASF her εἶπεν• G3004: V-2AAI-3S said χαῖρε, G5463: V-PAM-2S Hail, κεχαριτωμένη G5487: V-RPP-NSF having been fully favored, ὁ G3588: T-NSM the κύριος G2962: N-NSM Lord μετὰ G3326: PREP with σου G4771: P-2GS you. Luke 1:18

And having entered to her, he said: Hail, you who have been fully favored, the Eternal is with you. Luke 1:18

The construction "μετὰ σοῦ" appears in:

Genesis 6:18, 20; Genesis 8:16f; Genesis 17:4; Genesis 20:16; Genesis 21:22f; Genesis 24:8, 40; Genesis 26:3, 24, 28; Genesis 28:15; Genesis 30:15; Genesis 31:3, 13, 38; Genesis 33:15; Genesis 39:17; Genesis 46:4; Exodus 3:12; Exodus 18:18f; Exodus 19:24; Exodus 33:3; Exodus 34:3; Leviticus 10:9, 14f; Leviticus 25:25, 35f; Numbers 5:19; Numbers 11:16f; Numbers 16:10; Numbers 18:2, 7, 11, 19; Deuteronomy 2:7; Deuteronomy 14:27, 29; Deuteronomy 20:1; Deuteronomy 22:2; Deuteronomy 23:17; Deuteronomy 31:8, 23; Joshua 1:5, 9, 17; Joshua 2:19; Joshua 3:7; Joshua 8:1; Judges 1:3, 24; Judges 4:9; Judges 6:12, 16; Judges 7:2, 4; Judges 9:32; Judges 12:1; Judges 1:3, 24; Judges 4:9; Judges 6:12, 16; Judges 7:2, 4; Judges 9:32; Judges 12:1; Ruth 1:10; 1 Samuel 10:7; 1 Samuel 14:7; 1 Samuel 15:26; 1 Samuel 17:37; 1 Samuel 20:13; 1 Samuel 21:2; 1 Samuel 26:6; 1 Samuel 27:5; 1 Samuel 28:19; 1 Samuel 29:10; 2 Samuel 3:12, 21; 2 Samuel 7:3, 9; 2 Samuel 9:7; 2 Samuel 13:20, 26; 2 Samuel 14:17, 19; 2 Samuel 15:20, 35; 2 Samuel 16:21; 2 Samuel 19:8; 1 Kings 2:8, 35; 1 Kings 3:6; 1 Kings 11:11, 38; 1 Kings 13:8, 16; 2 Kings 5:26; 2 Kings 14:10; 2 Kings 19:9; 1 Chronicles 17:2, 8; 1 Chronicles 22:11, 15f; 1 Chronicles 28:20f; 2 Chronicles 16:9; 2 Chronicles 18:3; 2 Chronicles 25:7, 19; 1 Esdras 8:91; Ezra 7:13; Ezra 10:4; Judith 11:6, 16; Judith 12:3; Tobit 2:14; Tobit 4:15; Tobit 5:5f, 9; Tobit 6:18; Tobit 2:14; Tobit 5:3, 9; Tobit 6:18; Tobit 9:2; Tobit 12:1; 1 Maccabees 12:45; Psalms 72:23; Psalms 109:3; Psalms 138:18; Proverbs 6:22; Proverbs 23

The Strong's Dictionary defines μετὰ (meta) with the number G03326, a primary preposition (often used adverbially); TDNT - 7:766,1102; prep 1) with, after, behind.

The Strong's Dictionary defines σοῦ (sou) with the number G04675, genitive case of 4771; pron 1) your.

The understanding of "μετὰ σοῦ" is evident in John 3:26, when considering the disciples of John the Baptist:

"And they came to John and said to him, 'Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.' John answered, 'A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, "I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him." The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. He must increase, but I must decrease. He who comes from above is above all. He who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks in an earthly way. He who comes from heaven is above all." (John 3:26-31, ESV)

In this context, the usual understanding of "μετὰ σοῦ" is "being behind and with," as a spontaneous and covenantal follower.

Let's consider the case of Luke 22:33, where Peter says:

"And he said to him, 'Lord, I am ready to go with you both to prison and to death.'"

This signifies "going along spontaneously," that is, association.

The term Κεχαριτωμένη (Kecharitomene) is in the perfect participle form, passive voice (Vocative, enclosed in commas in the edited Greek text of Nestle-Aland, Novum Testamentum Graece, 28th Revised Edition, edited by Barbara and Kurt Aland, Johannes Karavidopoulos, Carlo M. Martini, and Bruce M. Metzger in cooperation with the Institute for New Testament Textual Research, Münster/Westphalia, © 2012 Deutsche, feminine, and second person singular) of χαριτόω (charitoo), according to the declension classification in The Analytical Greek New Testament (Barbara Friberg – Timothy Friberg), Edições Vida Nova, Page 172.

The Strong's Dictionary defines the verb χαριτόω (charitoo) with the number G05487, charitoo from 5485; TDNT - 9:372,1298; v 1) make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, pleasing 2) to do something pleasant for, show kindness 3) to bestow favor on.

As for the term χάρις "Charis," it means "grace," qualified in the Strong's Dictionary under the number G05485, charis of 5463; TDNT - 9:372,1298; n f 1) grace 1a) that which brings joy, delight, pleasure, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech 2) goodwill, kind favor, favor 2a) of merciful kindness by which God, exerting his holy influence upon souls, turns them to Christ, keeping, strengthening, increasing them in Christian faith, knowledge, affection, and kindles them to the exercise of the Christian virtues 3) what is due to grace 3a) the spiritual condition of one governed by the power of divine grace 3b) the token or proof of grace, benefit 3b1) a gift of grace 3b2) a favor, privilege 4) thanks, (for benefits, services, favors), recompense, reward.

The term χαριτόω "Charitoo" is a Greek verb ending in "-όω," omega omicron "-oo," which means that it puts the person or thing into the state indicated by the verbal root. A characteristic of Greek verbs ending in –όω, according to the Revised Greek Grammar by Herbert Weir Smyth and Editor Gordon M. Messing, for Classical Greek, with some reservations, is that they are usually factitive, i.e., causative; they signify actions that have a changing effect on the person or thing the subject affects. The root being "charis" or "grace," "charitoo" means to put into a state of "grace," to become "gracious."

So, χαριτόω, as explained earlier, is a verb that incorporates the root χάρις (the "grace," undeserved kindness/unmerited favor), signifying to effect a change through "grace," or simply to "grace."

**1st Research: Is the primary effect of the "grace" to the Virgin Mary, in Luke 1:28, the removal of sin?**

Houaiss Dictionary - Factitive: Adjective. Linguistics. Said of a verb that involves the idea of making or causing; causative (e.g., putting someone to sleep is a verb used in a factitive manner). Etymology Adjective Linguistics. Said of a verb that involves the idea of making or causing; causative (e.g., putting someone to sleep is a verb used in a factitive manner).

The term χαριτόω is qualified in Strong's Dictionary under number G05487, charitoo, from 5485; TDNT - 9:372,1298; v 1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, pleasing 2) to favor greatly, show great generosity 3) to honor with blessings.

The Greek prefix κε "ke" indicates that the verb is in the participle mood, a nominal form that functions as both a verb and an adjective and can be used adverbially, agreeing with the noun or pronoun in gender, number, and case; in the perfect tense, past indefinite, explained below:

See index of Consulted Works wrote: "The perfect tense is the most important exegetically among all Greek tenses." Moulton, Prolegomena, 140. The perfect is used less than the present, aorist, future, or imperfect; when used, however, there is usually a deliberate choice by the writer. Definition: The force of the perfect tense describes a completed event in the past (speaking of the perfect indicative here), which has existing results in the present time (i.e., in relation to the speaker's time). Or, as Zerwick puts it: "the perfect tense is not used to indicate a past action but the present and resulting state of the past action." Zerwick, Biblical Greek, 96 BDF suggests that the perfect "combines in itself, so to speak, the present and the aorist denoting the continuation of the complete action..." BDF, 175 (§340). Chamberlain goes further when suggesting that it is sometimes used to "describe an action that has permanent results." Chamberlain, Exegetical Grammar, 72 (italics mine). The implication of what "the perfect brings is that the event occurred and still has significant results." This goes beyond grammar and can therefore be misunderstood. Even more dangerous is the notion found in commentaries stating that the perfect denotes a permanent or eternal result. Such a statement is akin to saying that the aorist tense means "once and for all." Implications of this kind are drawn from considerations without grammatical basis. Care should be taken not to make syntactic theology only when convenient. 1

A special feature of the perfect, whether first or second, is the prefix, also called by grammarians "reduplication" and "augment." In our case, the prefix κε for the verb χαριτόω. 2; 3;4;5;6.

**2nd Research: Does the previous grammatical context occur with other similar verbs?**

The term Κεχαριτωμένη is used in Luke 1:18 to designate the Virgin Mary as "the recipient of divine 'grace'" (Fitzmyer, 1:345; cf. Nolland, 1:50; BDAG, 1081), with no reference to her personal dignity (Marshall, 65): "To show kindness to someone, in the case of the Virgin Mary, with the implication of graciousness on the part of that one, in this case, God, showing such kindness" (LN 88.66).

**3rd Research: Are there other similar constructions in the Greek text that help translate Luke 1:28?**

Consulted Works 1 - Greek Grammar, an Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament by Daniel B. Wallace, Regular Baptist Press. Pp. 573-575. 2 - Antônio Renato Gusso - Instrumental Grammar of Greek, Vida Nova, Pg 161; 163. 3 - Notions of Biblical Greek: Fundamental Grammar, Lourenço Stelio Rega, Johannes Bergmann 4 - São Paulo: Vida Nova, 2004, P. 250, 5 - A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, Blass, F., Debrunner, A., & Funk, R. W. (1961). University of Chicago Press, Pp. 175-177, §§ 340-342. 6 Luke - A Handbook on the Greek Text, by Martin M. Culy, Mikeal C. Parsons, and Joshua J. Stigall, P. 28.

The Greek suffix μένη "méne" makes the word a passive participle. Passive means that the action is on the Subject, in our case, the Virgin Mary, by another person, God, since the speaker is the angel Gabriel. God is the author of the state of "charis" ("grace") in her because only He can bring about a change in someone through "grace." The verb used, "kecharitoméne," indicates that the Virgin Mary is the recipient of a fullness of "grace," and this was given to her completely in an indefinite past. The perfect tense does not indicate that there was a filling of "grace." "Grace" is not a substance or liquid; "full of grace" is a poor translation. The event was continuous in terms of the effects that were ongoing in the Virgin Mary before the angel Gabriel appeared, just as God prepared the Garden of Eden for Adam, the Virgin Mary was prepared for the New Adam, Jesus, the Anointed One.
Compendium of Catholic Apologetics, by José Miguel Arráiz Roberti, P. 496.

**4th Research: Does the suffix μένη "méne" indicate that it will always be this way?**

3) The term χαῖρε is qualified in Strong's Dictionary under number G05463, chairo, primary verb; TDNT - 9:359,1298; v 1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to be extremely happy 3) to be well, to have success 4) in greetings, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to make a greeting, to greet. This verb χαῖρε is also used in Mat. 26:49; Mat. 27:29; Mar. 15:18, and Joa. 19:3. In all the cited imperative cases, it refers to a greeting given to a superior, albeit ironic. The corresponding word in the Clementine Latin Vulgate is "Ave," in the sense of a greeting given to a superior. Note the addition of "Ave Rabbi" in Matthew 14:45 and compare it with the non-imperative case in Acts 23:26 for "salutem," that is, greetings, not excluding authority, it being a subordinate greeting an imperial authority. If the angel said, "Hail" to Mary, one could argue that she is, in some way, superior to the angel Gabriel.

1) Seeing, therefore, Abigail to David, she hurried, and descended from the donkey, and fell on her face before David, and bowed down to the ground. And fell at his feet, and said, "Oh, my lord, let the blame be mine; and let your servant speak to your ears, and hear the words of your servant." 1 Samuel 25:23-24

From 1a) Kneeling before a king was not a condemnable act.

2) Saying, "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?" Matthew 2:2-3

From 2a) If Jesus is the King of the Jews, Mary is automatically the Queen Mother of the Jews. It was common in nobility titles. Moreover, it is understood that the Virgin Mary is the representative of Joseph in the Davidic lineage, being one flesh with him; otherwise, the lineage would not be complete, hence, co-author.

3) And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14 - No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. John 1:18 (Critical text, with reservations, the Vulgate text includes "son," different from the testimony of the critical text, which is essential for the Doctrine of Unity, and easily understood as the title of The Mother of God, supported according to the Orthodox Catholic Catechism (Please do not confuse with the Roman Catholic Church) from Latin "Deípara" or in Greek "Teótoco" through exegesis of Deuteronomy 6:4; Matthew 2:2-3, Mark 12:29 and 26:29; Luke 1:43.

From 3a) If Jesus is the Only Begotten God, Mary is the mother of the Only Begotten God.

4) The term χαῖρε is qualified in Strong's Concordance under the number G5463, chairo, primary verb; TDNT – 9:359,1298; v 1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to be exceedingly joyful 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give a greeting, greet. This verb χαῖρε is also used in Mat. 26:49; Mat. 27:29; Mar. 15:18 and Joh. 19:3. In all cited imperative cases, it refers to a greeting given to a superior, even if ironic. The corresponding word in the Old Latin Vulgate (Not to be confused with a later Vulgate) is "Ave," in the sense of a greeting given to a superior. Note the addition "Ave Rabbi" in Matthew 14:45 in other instances and compare with the non-imperative case in Acts 23:26 for "salutem," that is, greetings, not excluding authority, being a subordinate greeting an imperial authority.

From 4a) If the angel said "Ave" to Mary, one can argue that she is in some way superior to * the angel Gabriel. (* an ellipsis)

5) According to the Catechism of the Orthodox Catholic Church, the intercession of the saints is well characterized in Zechariah 1:12; Matthew 22:31-32, Mark 12:26-27, Luke 2:35, also 15:10 and 20:37-38; John 2:3-5; Romans 15:30; Ephesians 6:18; 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Peter 1:15, Revelation 8:3.

From 5a) It is not complex to understand the Virgin Mary in the scope of this message as an intercessor in the kingdom in a qualified position. She is not a mediator; many are intercessors.

6) For the verb in the vocative translated as full of grace in Luke 1:28, "gratia plena" in the Old Vulgate, already much discussed and explained in ecclesiastical history, it must be understood that "grace," filling her, is deeply related to a Semitic background.

From 6a) Thus, it is perfectly reasonable to understand, in a more erudite sense, the lexicology of this Greek verb with the substance, the Hypostasis of God in Hebrews 1:3.

7) "Entering, the angel said to her, 'Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you. She was troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.'" Luke 1:28-30 Bible Ave Maria.

From 7a) The Virgin Mary was in doubt about the greeting made by the angel Gabriel. This is pertinent in the sense that she understood the language, even though the verb "full of grace" in the past tense is possibly a hapax, but the same angel deciphers a part of the mentioned doubt: "you have found favor with God"; the rest is deciphered by the Virgin Mary herself, according to the concordance of the Armenian, Coptic, and Latin languages.

The preceding text, except for 6), follows the understanding seen in Greek, Latin, and Armenian in the New Testament in Semitic languages (Arabic, Aramaic, Aramaic-Syriac) and is of some consideration in Georgian, Ethiopian, Persian, Slavic.

**Complement: Perfect Tense Verbs, with a reduplication similar to Luke 1:28:**

- κεχρηματισμένον = having been divinely revealed (Luke 2:26)
- κέκλεισται = having been closed (Luke 11:7)
- κεκοσμημένον = having been adorned (Luke 11:25)
- κεκλημένους = having been invited (Luke 14:7)
- κεκλημένος = having been invited (Luke 14:8)
- κεκληκώς = having invited (Luke 14:10)
- κεκληκότι = having invited (Luke 14:12)
- κεκλημένοις = having been invited (Luke 14:17)
- κεκλημένων = having been invited (Luke 14:24)
- κεκρυμμένον = having been hidden (Luke 18:34)
- κεκόσμηται = having been adorned (Luke 21:5)
- κέκλικεν = having declined (Luke 24:29)

Is there a sense of completeness in the preceding verbs?

**What is the difference between the vocative verb κεχαριτωμένη in Luke 1:28 and the dative verb κεχαριτωμένῳ in Sirach 18:17?**

- κεχαριτωμένη (Luke 1:28): favored one
- κεχαριτωμένῳ (Sirach 18:17): having been completely charitable

In Sirach 18:17, the verse emphasizes that the man is not just favored or blessed but has been completely charitable. The word "caritativo" implies a deep sense of charity or kindness.

**Translation of Sirach 18:17:**

"Não vês que é melhor a palavra que um presente? O homem caritativo sabe combinar (aunar) as duas coisas." (Ecle-Sir. 18:17 CAB)

"Do you not see that the word is better than a good gift, and both have come from a completely charitable man?" (Personal translation from the Septuagint, using "is" as an ellipsis.)

**Dative case is the indirect object of the verb, page 165. Thus, "beside the man" is the prepositional indirect object of the verb "having been completely charitable," that is, both the Logos and the good gift were completely charitable alongside the man. The vocative case indicates invocation or exclamation, page 166. Small Grammar of New Testament Greek, SELF-TAUGHT, by Francisco Leonardo Schalkwijk, North Presbyterian Seminary, Recife, PE.**

Daniel Wallace states regarding (2) function: the vocative is syntactically independent of the rest of the sentence, and it is extremely rare in the New Testament, 1%, page 66. Second, although within a sentence the vocative is grammatically absolute, at the discourse level, it carries semantic weight. In other words, while the vocative appears within a sentence, it is actually an indicator of an audience and is "supra-sentential," helping the reader understand not only who is being invoked but also how it is done. There are three basic uses: (1) direct invocation, (2) exclamation, and (3) apposition. The third category, as with all uses of a simple apposition, is not really a distinct syntactic category (since the case is simply "attached" to the noun it apposes). The first category is overwhelmingly the most frequent use. Simple Invocation a. Definition. This is the use of the vocative without a preceding ^w particle. In note number 9 on page 68, it says: The vocative on the lips of Jesus (and sometimes others) seems often to be emotional even without this particle. Cf. Mat 4:10; 7:5; 8:29; 11:21; 18:32; 23:26; 25:26; 27:46; Mc 1:24; 8:33; 10:47; Luc 4:34; 19:22; At 5:3; 1 Cor 15:55. It may be that the "dry vocative" is actually a tangle of things, containing both addressing and emphatic/emotional calling. That is, it is unmarked, but the context can naturally inform its value.

This verbal syntactic class only appears again in Luke 9:41, διεστραμμένη having been completely corrupted.

Therefore, one is the usage given to the Virgin Mary by the Archangel Gabriel, while the other is used by Jesus to exclaim the corruption of that generation that would lead Him to Golgotha. Thus, a comparison is inevitable. It should also be noted that this is a peculiarity in the phrasal context, and one should also consider that God was with her, the personal fulfillment of the Angel's statement to her, etc...

If we consider the most accepted conjecture about the authorship of the Book of Acts, which says it is Luke, we have another significant case: κεκονιαμένε, having been completely whitened.

Word number G02867 in Strong's Dictionary, κονιαω - koniao, from konia (to sprinkle, by analogy, to fertilize); TDNT - 3:827,453; v1) cover with lime, plaster, whitewash 1a) the Jews were accustomed to whitewash the entrances of their tombs, as a warning against contamination by touch 1b) term applied to a hypocrite who hides his malice under an outward pretense of piety.

It is clear that an acceptable burial would not have a minimum of non-whitewashed area; if there were a contrast of color, the optical effect of purity would not be achieved. So, verbal syntax indeed indicates the idea of completeness, totally, which can still be seen in other passages like Tobias 10:13; Susana 1:52; Matthew 17:17; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Thess. 2:13.

The Virgin Mary did not understand the greeting, explained in parts to her by the Archangel Gabriel in Luke 1:30. Thus, when she expresses herself in the Magnificat, she uses various verbs that are synonymous with κεκονιαμένε, by inference, in other biblical passages in translations from Greek into languages of that time, to express her understanding of her mission.

The Romanist perspective teaches that the Most Holy Mary is also referred to as co-redemptrix in the sense that she offered her Son Jesus, with her maternal rights, when she authorized the beginning of His Ministry: "... Do whatever He tells you..." Thus, Mary, in her sufferings alongside those of her Son, bears witness to the Passion of Jesus for the salvation of humanity. Through this act, Mary herself deserved the grace of the redemption of all humanity. This was foretold by Simeon, who said to Mary, "A sword will pierce through your own soul also."

The "co" does not mean "equal," but "with." Mary does not play an equal role in Redemption. Her role in Redemption was in every way secondary and dependent on the work of Christ. Without Christ, there would have been no redemption, and Mary would not have been a co-redemptrix. Thus, the Most Holy Mother, who is the Mother of the Word, the Mother of the Logos, is the one who approached Christ so that He could perform His first miracle.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Betho_BR in post #11]

Your post is ridiculously long. Look, I asked you a couple of questions that will take only a few words to answer. Where does it say in Scripture that Mary is to be worshipped? Where does it say in Scripture that she is "immaculate"?

[Betho_BR]

Your post is ridiculously long. Look, I asked you a couple of questions that will take only a few words to answer. Where does it say in Scripture that Mary is to be worshipped? Where does it say in Scripture that she is "immaculate"?

Well, I knew people would complain about the lengthy post, but you see, there are millions of books on the subject, and compared to them, the post is not exhaustive at all. Now, the second point is that the Catholic Church encountered all these cases in the past when scholars were fluent in biblical languages. We can only have a somewhat blurry understanding if we grasp the writings in their language.

[kjw47]

This question has arisen elsewhere and I'd be interested in readers views of this issue.

The (Western) Roman Catholic Church claims apostolic succession through the Apostle Peter. It claims infallibility (no errors) by way of ecumenical (general) councils and all ex cathedra papal teachings.

The (Eastern) Orthodox churches claim apostolic succession through one of the other Apostles and only the infallibility of their first 10 ecumenical councils and no infallibility of their reigning senior bishop.

Since the Eastern Churchs claims apostolic succession, their sacraments are considered valid by the Roman Catholic church, but Catholics are advised to seek out one of their own clergy and only use the Orthodox clergy when it is not possible to use Catholic clergy.

Interestingly, some of the Eastern Church have reunited with Rome in which case they are known as Eastern Rite Catholics. In doing so thy have had to agree to accept certain teaching not regarded as valid in the Orthodox Chuch such as the "stain theory" of original sin and the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

Question: Am I in error here or are there other major differences in beliefs?

None of the above, nor any protestant branch either. They all use altered versions of the bible. Altered by satans will to mislead, and they do mislead 100%. Only religions lead by blind guides use those altered translations.

[2timothy316]

Your post is ridiculously long. Look, I asked you a couple of questions that will take only a few words to answer. Where does it say in Scripture that Mary is to be worshipped? Where does it say in Scripture that she is "immaculate"?

Well, I knew people would complain about the lengthy post, but you see, there are millions of books on the subject, and compared to them, the post is not exhaustive at all. Now, the second point is that the Catholic Church encountered all these cases in the past when scholars were fluent in biblical languages. We can only have a somewhat blurry understanding if we grasp the writings in their language.

Do you think that God would leave an important part of worship to a 'blurry understanding'?

The Bible is clear, "Worship God.” Revelation 22:9

[Betho_BR]

Do you think that God would leave an important part of worship to a 'blurry understanding'?

The Bible is clear, "Worship God.” Revelation 22:9

The word "Elohim" has a semantic richness that has been the object of study by many scholars and theologians over the centuries. The exact origin of the word is not completely clear, but it is often associated with the Hebrew root "El", which means "God" or "deity". "Elohim" is a plural form of this root, but is often used with singular verbs when referring to the one God in the Judeo-Christian monotheistic tradition. The word "Elohim" is used repeatedly in the Old Testament, and the variety of contexts in which it appears contributes to its semantic complexity. It can be translated simply as "God" in most passages, but the plural form of the word has generated different interpretations.

The expression "God of gods" is present in some passages, such as Deuteronomy 10:17, which says: "For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great and mighty and awesome God." Here, the use of "Elohim" in the plural form is interpreted by some as an expression of divine supremacy and power over any other deity. Some scholars suggest that the use of the plural in "Elohim" may reflect an ancient Canaanite tradition in which the divine pantheon was viewed as a divine assembly. However, throughout the development of Jewish theology, the understanding of a single, supreme God became predominant.

Although the exact etymology of "Elohim" may not be definitively established, its use in the Bible reflects a semantic richness that may include notions of intensity, plenitude and, in some passages, expressions of divine supremacy over other deities, in addition, Elohim can be referred to deities (e.g., Gen 35:2; Ex 18:11, Job 1:6; Ps 8:5) or magistrates (Ex 21:6; 1 Sam 2:25).

Therefore, we can interpret the word "God" in Revelation 22:9 as Elohim and this has many theological implications, it is not simple at all.

[Betho_BR]

Not to mention that the Greek verb for "worship" is the subject of much controversy, see the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses.

[2timothy316]

Not to mention that the Greek verb for "worship" is the subject of much controversy, see the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Its actually its easy. Just look at the context of the scripture. The word worship should be used only when concerning Almighty God or even a false god. All other places where the Greek word is used toward anything other than God or even a false god, the word obeisance should be used.

Is Mary a god? What scripture says that one should even do obeisance to Mary?

[onewithhim]

Your post is ridiculously long. Look, I asked you a couple of questions that will take only a few words to answer. Where does it say in Scripture that Mary is to be worshipped? Where does it say in Scripture that she is "immaculate"?

Well, I knew people would complain about the lengthy post, but you see, there are millions of books on the subject, and compared to them, the post is not exhaustive at all. Now, the second point is that the Catholic Church encountered all these cases in the past when scholars were fluent in biblical languages. We can only have a somewhat blurry understanding if we grasp the writings in their language.

You are familiar with the Bible, aren't you? Just post a couple of Scriptures that answer my questions. (1) Does the Bible say that we should worship Mary? I haven't seen anything that leads me to that conclusion. (2) Does the Bible say that she is "immaculate"? As I have seen it, Jesus was the only one that was ever born immaculate. Please, just a couple of simple verses from the Scriptures.

[historia]

You are familiar with the Bible, aren't you? Just post a couple of Scriptures that answer my questions.

Perhaps I can assist here.

(1) Does the Bible say that we should worship Mary?

No. Also, the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches do not worship Mary.

(2) Does the Bible say that she is "immaculate"?

Catholic theologians point to a number of passages from which this can be inferred. This article from Catholic Magazine provides a useful summary of those:

1. Mary is revealed to be "full of grace" in Luke 1:28.
2. Mary is revealed to be the fulfillment of the prophetic "Daughter of Zion" of Isaiah 12:1-6; Zephaniah 3:14-16; Zechariah 2:10; etc.
3. Mary is revealed to be "the beginning of the new creation" in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:22.
4. Mary is revealed to possess a "blessed state" parallel with Christ’s in Luke 1:42.
5. Mary is called not just "blessed" among women, but "more blessed than all women" (including Eve) in Luke 1:42.
6. Mary is revealed to be the spotless "Ark of the Covenant" in Luke 1.
7. Mary is revealed to be the "New Eve" in Luke 1:37-38; John 2:4, 19:26-27; Revelation 12; and elsewhere.
8. Mary is revealed to be free from the pangs of labor in fulfillment of Isaiah 66:7-8.

But this is also part of sacred tradition and so can be established on that ground. The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches hold to a not dissimilar idea about Mary.