Non-sectarian Prayer

[McCulloch]

What church, or religion for that matter, is being established by the saying of a non-sectarian prayer?

Is there such a thing as a non-sectarian prayer? Are the prayers used by the US Congress non-sectarian?

From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Printing Office [www.gpo.gov]

Almighty and eternal Father, we are gathered here as Your people and Your children. Out of love, You brought us into existence. Out of love, You fashioned each and every one of us in Your image and likeness. We humbly ask Your blessings upon us today as we open this session of Congress. Grant guidance and wisdom to the Members of this Congress and all of those in public office; may they always do Your will. God, all-powerful Father, as we go forth today, fill us with the light of Your holy spirit. Bless all of the citizens of this land of the free; may they always seek true freedom and true life. In Your loving mercy, keep our great Nation, and all of those who defend it, safe from every enemy, both foreign and domestic, so that we may rejoice in singing Your praises. Grant to us Your light and life and peace. And may the Lord bless us, protect us from all evil, and bring us to everlasting life.
Amen.

Almighty and everlasting God, be not angry with us for our sins, which we only confess and deplore; but pardon our offenses and extend to us Thy favor. We thank Thee for Thy goodness on this anniversary of the nation a day tenfold more precious by reason of our present troubles, and sacred to the heart for the ever memorable Declaration of our fathers, in which Thou didst begin more openly to give us a name among the nations of the earth. We thank Thee for all Thy manifold and abundant mercies hitherto to make our nation exceedingly great and glorious; but now disasters have befallen us and darkness broods in the land. And now we ask Thy mercy as the Senate is convening at a most momentous crisis of our history. Give to Thy servants all needed help. Add to their deliberations wisdom and unanimity, and profit and speed to their conclusion. Bless Thy servant, the President of the United States, our veteran Commander-in- Chief, and all that have functions in the civil and military power. May the angel of Thy presence walk in the Cabinet and in the Congress and in the camp, to go before, to purify, and to direct the now greatly and universally-awakened love of country. And we beseech Thee to guide us, to overrule and order all things, and so to cause that nothing shall fail, that the disorders of the land may be speedily healed, that peace and concord may prevail, that truth and righteousness may be established, and that Thy Church and Kingdom may flourish in a larger peace and prosperity, for Thy Son, our Saviour, Jesus Christ's sake.
Amen. (Source: Congressional Globe, 37th Congress, first session, new series, 1, 4 July 1861.)

Our Father in Heaven, the inspiration of every generous impulse, every high and noble aspiration, we thank Thee from our heart of hearts for the "Spirit of '76," which gave to us the immortal Declaration of Independence, which led on to victory and the formation of our Glorious Republic, which has not only been the wonder but the admiration of the world. We thank Thee for the day which will be celebrated with more than usual interest throughout the length and breadth of the land. The native born and the naturalized citizen will vie with each other in making it memorable.
For the first time in its history it will be celebrated by our sister nations, who are engaged with us in fighting for the same principles for which our forefather fought, in a world-wide war for humanity, liberty, justice, and equal rights for all mankind. May it furnish new inspiration to us and our allies, which will bring victory to their arms; then an everlasting peace; to the glory and honor of Thy Holy Name. Amen. (Source: Congressional Record-House, 65th Congress, second session, 56/9, July 4, 1918, 8668.)

Our fathers' God and ours, on the birthday of national independence we confess our dependence upon Thee. Without Thee we are lost in spite of the overwhelming might of our national arms.
We thank Thee for those pilgrims of faith who came hither in their frail barque across mountainous seas and who stepped upon strange shores with the salutation to a new world, "In the Name of God. Amen." The Nation here established, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal has acknowledged that Name above every name and reverenced it, has built its altars, reared its temples, and raised its steeples, emblems of a faith that points to the skies and wings its sure and certain way to God. Make that faith of the fathers, we pray, real to us in these tempestuous days. Save us from a freedom of speech so empty that we have nothing worth saying, from a freedom of worship so futile that we have no God to adore, from freedom from want and fear with no creative idea as to how to use our plenty or our security for the redemption of our social order and for the salvation of our own souls. Let all that is low and unworthy in us sink to the depths. Let all that is high and fine in us rise to greet the morn of a new day confident that the best is yet to be.
Amen. (Source: Congressional Record-Senate, 78th Congress, first session, 89/5, July 5, 1943, 7160.)

Psalm 11: 3: If the foundations be destroyed what can the righteous do?
O Thou Eternal God, may our minds and hearts be stirred with a deepening sense of patriotism and gratitude as we continue to think of that day of high and holy memory in our national history when a company of God-fearing men were guided by Thy divine wisdom to sign the Declaration of Independence
Grant that the blessings of freedom, which were purchased at a tremendous cost and which we prize so highly and are privileged to enjoy in such an abundant measure, may always be coordinated with the spirit of self-discipline.
Help us to cling with increasing tenacity of faith and fortitude to the great truth proclaimed by George Washington in his Farewell Address that religion and morality are indispensable and our national greatness if we allow them to be subverted and obliterated by secularism.
Hear us in the name of our blessed Lord. Amen. (Source: Congressional Record- House, 87th Congress, second session, 108/9, Thursday, July 5, 1962, 12703.)

We thank Thee, O God, that the freedom we celebrate in coming days is not an attainment, but an obtainment that it is Thy precious gift to man as part of his createdness. We thank Thee for the daring of our forefathers in reclaiming their "ancient rights." We thank Thee, too, for the heroes' valor, the patriots' devotion, the prophets' vision, and for all the blood and sweat and toil by which our freedom was purchased. As we commemorate our national independence accept again the declaration of our everlasting dependence upon Thee. In all our joy and thanksgiving enable us to remain a nation "under God," and give us grace and goodness to minister to mankind in His name. Amen. (Source: Congressional Record-Senate, 91st Congress, first session, 115/14, Wednesday, July 2, 1969, 18185.)

Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord. Psalms 33: 12.
Eternal God, stir Thou our minds and stimulate our hearts with a high sense of patriotism as we approach the Fourth of July. May all that this day symbolizes renew our faith in freedom, our devotion to democracy, and redouble our efforts to keep a government of the people, by the people, and for the people truly alive in our world.
Grant that we may highly resolve on this great day to dedicate ourselves anew to the task of ushering in an era when good will shall live in the hearts of a free people, justice shall be the light to guide their feet, and peace shall be the goal of humankind: to the glory of Thy holy name and the good of our Nation and of all mankind. Amen. (Source: Congressional Record- House, 93d Congress, second session, 120/17, Wednesday July 3, 1974, 22130.)

Lord God of hosts, God of the nations: By your grace and in Your patience You have allowed this our land once again to celebrate its birth, its primal guest for liberty, justice, and equity. And we are grateful.
And once again by Your grace and in Your patience You have called this House-- responsible men and women who are equally faithful and unfaithful, righteous and unrighteous before You, each other, and the people-- You have called this House to the exercise of its solemn task of the legislation of law and the formation of the Nation.
Remind these Your servants that liberty, justice, and equity remain ahead of this Nation as tasks yet to be fulfilled and not as goals already reached.
Maintain before us a clear dedication to the needs of those in our midst who are on the outside because of age, ill health, race, sex, poverty, and urban or rural degredation.
And consecrate anew this Nation to the exercise of imaginative and sacrificial leadership in a restless and violent world which still struggles for authentic justice, peace, and a safe home in Your creation.
Accept now, O God, the labors of this day and the frail lives of Your servants in this House. To You be all honor and glory, world without end. Amen. (Source: Congressional Record-House, 102d Congress, second session, 138/99, Wednesday July 7, 1992, H5981.)

With the psalmist of old we pray together: "I cry with my voice to the Lord, with my voice I make supplication to the Lord, I pour out my complaint before him, I tell my trouble before him. When my spirit is faint, thou knowest my way. "Hear my prayer, O Lord; give ear to my supplications. In thy faithfulness answer me, in my righteousness.'' Hear our prayers this day, O loving God, and may Your eternal blessings be in our hearts forever.
Amen.

God of hope, make us hopeful thinkers. Hope through us for Your best for the future of America. Often we are infected by negative thinking when we calculate the possible without Your power. Continued conflict over legislation can result in weariness. We know that authentic hope is based on Your faithfulness and the memory of how You have intervened to help us in the past. Help us to take a backward look to Your past blessings, an upward look to Your grace, and a forward look to the future, expecting the ways You will help us solve problems and grasp potentials. You are a God of progress. You abhor plateaus; You make us bold to claim Your vision. Help the Senators to exemplify the uplifting strength of hope this week. Through our Lord and Savior. Amen.

Let us pray:
Forgiving God, keep us mindful of the potential arrogance of power and how it can destroy trusted leadership. As the Old Testament says concerning Uzziah, King of Judah, As his power increased, his heart grew proud, and this was his ruin.--II Chronicles 26:16, Jerusalem Bible.
Gracious Father in Heaven, at a time when cynicism and distrust are epidemic, send us spiritual and moral renewal, and let it begin with leadership. Humble us, Lord, before it is too late. Restore to us the dream of our forefathers, the trust in God that generated that dream, and forbid that we should be willing to settle for anything less.
In the name of Truth. Amen.

[East of Eden]

The reason why I quoted from the Congressional Record is to clearly show how much of a misrepresentation the claim that the prayers offered by the paid agent of the state before the legislature are non-sectarian. Can anyone imagine that these prayers could be uttered by a practicing Jew, Hindu or Muslim? These are clearly Christian prayers, uttered by Christian religious leaders paid for by the American taxpayers.

How the heck is this not the establishment of the Christian religion?

Which Christian denomination is being established?

Who said anything about Christian denominations? The writers of the first amendment certainly did not. Check out the wording. "Respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" not "respecting an establishment of one denomination." The religion of Christianity is being established when the state sponsors Christian prayers for its Congress.

You are wrong, the Founders did not want a state church as in England, it is ridiculous to say they didn't want to establish a belief in God. As I have said ad nasueum, the same Founders had similar prayers. At one point do you think such prayers became unconsttutional? The men who wrote that document didn't think so.

Why? Was Jesus born in year 1 AD? The expression "Common Era" would be preferable, but it is a minor issue. "CE" can be found as early as 1708 in English, and traced back to Latin usage among European Christians to 1615, as vulgaris aerae, and to 1635 in English as Vulgar Era. Since the later 20th century, use of CE and BCE has been popularized in academic and scientific publications, and more generally by publishers emphasizing secularism or sensitivity to non-Christians. [text copied from Wikipedia]

The Declaration itself says "In the year of our Lord".

They are for the most part Christian prayers. Christianity is not the established religion of the Congress of the United States.

So you agree you can have prayers without an establishment of a church? Thank you.

According to John Adams, you know, one of the first guys to defend the Constitution, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." But what did he know?

You're really reaching when you bring up the Treaty of Tripoli. Here's some more Adams quotes:

John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)


I'm on the road til Tuesday, guys.

[McCulloch]

The Founders did not want a state church as in England, it is ridiculous to say they didn't want to establish a belief in God.

Thomas Jefferson, one of The Founders, said, "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. " Of course they did not want a state church. And the way they thought it best to avoid this was to keep government out of religion and religion out of government.

The Declaration itself says "In the year of our Lord".

Of course it did. They were a product of their time, trying out a new idea, secularism. They did not get all of the details right first time through.

They are for the most part Christian prayers. Christianity is not the established religion of the Congress of the United States.

So you agree you can have prayers without an establishment of a church? Thank you.

No, I meant that even though Christianity is not the established religion of Congress, they still use Christian prayers, which in a secular organization should be avoided. Senator Mazie Hirono (D - Hawaii), Representative Tulsi Gabbard (D - Hawaii) and Senator Kyrsten Sinema (D - Arizona) are Congress' first Buddhist, Hindu and openly non-theist members of Congress. There are thirty-two Jews and two Muslims in Congress. Are they being ministered to by these Christian prayers? Should they be asked to stand out in the hallway, like the errant school child who's only crime is to have chosen non-Christian parents?

According to John Adams, you know, one of the first guys to defend the Constitution, "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." But what did he know?

You're really reaching when you bring up the Treaty of Tripoli. Here's some more Adams quotes:

John Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Second President of the United States

t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.

(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)


I'm on the road til Tuesday, guys.

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief








Wilson: Early Presidents Not Religious

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity....
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831. One might expect a modern defender of the Evangelical to play with the meaning of "Christianity," making it refer only to a specific brand of orthodoxy, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15

Source: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

[East of Eden]

Of course it did. They were a product of their time, trying out a new idea, secularism. They did not get all of the details right first time through.

And you know what they didn't get right? That's a touch presumptious.

No, I meant that even though Christianity is not the established religion of Congress, they still use Christian prayers, which in a secular organization should be avoided. Senator Mazie Hirono (D - Hawaii), Representative Tulsi Gabbard (D - Hawaii) and Senator Kyrsten Sinema (D - Arizona) are Congress' first Buddhist, Hindu and openly non-theist members of Congress. There are thirty-two Jews and two Muslims in Congress. Are they being ministered to by these Christian prayers? Should they be asked to stand out in the hallway, like the errant school child who's only crime is to have chosen non-Christian parents?

None of those groups except atheists would be bothered by a non-sectarian prayer mentioning God. I don't hear them complaining, only militant secularists. Here is a British Muslim woman complaining about such people:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... Warsi.html

Maybe we should cancel Thanksgiving so we don't hurt atheists feelings?

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.
-- John Adams, "this awful blashpemy" that he refers to is the myth of the Incarnation of Christ, from Ira D Cardiff, What Great Men Think of Religion, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief








Wilson: Early Presidents Not Religious

"The founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected [Washington; Adams; Jefferson; Madison; Monroe; Adams; Jackson] not a one had professed a belief in Christianity....
"Among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than Unitarianism."
-- The Reverend Doctor Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, in a sermon preached in October, 1831. One might expect a modern defender of the Evangelical to play with the meaning of "Christianity," making it refer only to a specific brand of orthodoxy, first sentence quoted in John E Remsberg, Six Historic Americans, second sentence quoted in Paul F Boller, George Washington & Religion, pp. 14-15

Source: http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

Washington, from a letter to American Indians:

"You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."[28]

Letter to
When Congress authorized a day of fasting in 1778 during the war, Washington told his soldiers:
"The Honorable Congress having thought proper to recommend to The United States of America to set apart Wednesday the 22nd. instant to be observed as a day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, that at one time and with one voice the righteous dispensations of Providence may be acknowledged and His Goodness and Mercy toward us and our Arms supplicated and implored; The General directs that this day also shall be religiously observed in the Army, that no work be done thereon and that the Chaplains prepare discourses suitable to the Occasion."[29]
Washington was a firm believer in the importance of religion for republican government. His 1796 Farewell Address, written by Alexander Hamilton and revised by himself, remarked that it was unrealistic to expect that a whole nation, whatever might be said of minds of peculiar structure, could long be moral without religion, that national morality is necessary for good government, and that politicians should cherish religion's support of national morality:
Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.It is substantially true, that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who, that is a sincere friend to it, can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?[30]"

Wikipedia

He was also the one who added "So Help Me God" to the oath of office.

Look, God will decide who was a Christian, not me, but the Founders were clearly not of the mindset hostile to religion like today's militant secularists, and understood the importance of religion and morality to society. Whether you see a link or not a breakdown of society has clearly coincided with decline in religion. When I was born the top offenses in school were talking, chewing gum, making noise, running in the halls, cutting in line, wearing improper clothing and not throwing away trash. Today the top issues are rape, robbery, assault, arson, suicide, vandalism, extortion, drug and alcohol use, gang violence, teen pregnancies, abortions and STDs. I say the Founders knew this would happen