Counterfeit Money ok with churches

[Choir Loft]

Where Are the Christian Churches When We Need Them Most?

There is an urgent need for the Christian churches to remind their mindless flocks that it is immoral to counterfeit money.

It is just as wrong for me to print fake money to buy your car, for example, as it would be for me to steal it from you outright. The need for the Christian churches to emphasize this ethical precept does not, however, stem from a danger that the Christian masses will resort to the printing press themselves.

Instead, the danger lies in the likelihood that the Christian masses will have their entire life savings and livelihoods wiped out by profoundly immoral economic idiots working in collusion with government who believe that prosperity grows on trees.

Again, one would think that the Christian masses would already be aware that counterfeiting money is sickeningly immoral and economically destructive, but Christians of all stripes have done virtually nothing to stand up to this form of robbery.

This testifies, yet again, to the appalling stupidity of the Christian masses – even when they themselves are being victimized, and the desperate need for the Christian herd to be morally guided by the Christian churches.

Am I my brother's keeper?
How about my family or my community or my country?
Or should I just stick my head in the sand (or some other southern region) and restrict my activity to prayer alone?

(based on an article by Mark R. Crovelli)

[JohnPaul]

Further, there has never been a sermon or series of sermons that I've been privy to that espoused a political response OF ANY SORT to any issue. The closest any of them have ever gotten to political activity is to recite the pledge of allegiance on the 4th of July (which I refuse to do).

I belong to a veteran's organization that regularly recites the Pledge of Allegiance at meetings. I recite the pledge with them, but I skip the part about "under God." This part is totally offensive to me. I believe it was inserted in the early 1950s by McCarthy and his henchmen.

Perhaps these people were not a particular organized church, but they certainly did use their government position to impose their religious ideas on the rest of us.

Incidentally, I still do not know what this thread is supposed to be about! Are you saying that churches should try to impose their ideas on others, or not?

John

[EconAtheism101]

Monetary policy has nothing to do with morality? You can't be serious.

Henry Ford

Can be and am. Morality can influence the objectives of policy, but even that's a dodgy one. Monetary policy normally involves trading off inflation and output growth, which is more important for the wellbeing of individuals? Output growth generates jobs, low inflation means that real wages tend to stay high.

The point is, arguments about monetary policy are highly technical, and priests don't know shit about it unless they also happen to be economists.

[Choir Loft]

Further, there has never been a sermon or series of sermons that I've been privy to that espoused a political response OF ANY SORT to any issue. The closest any of them have ever gotten to political activity is to recite the pledge of allegiance on the 4th of July (which I refuse to do).

I belong to a veteran's organization that regularly recites the Pledge of Allegiance at meetings. I recite the pledge with them, but I skip the part about "under God." This part is totally offensive to me. I believe it was inserted in the early 1950s by McCarthy and his henchmen.

Perhaps these people were not a particular organized church, but they certainly did use their government position to impose their religious ideas on the rest of us.

Incidentally, I still do not know what this thread is supposed to be about! Are you saying that churches should try to impose their ideas on others, or not?

John

You are free of course to recite anything you want when the time comes for people to pray to the flag.

Personally I do NOT recite the pledge of allegiance AT ALL. The whole thing is morally and spiritually repugnant. If at all possible I remove myself from the group on those occasions when that particular religious ceremony is performed.

I am a six year veteran with two years duty in the middle east under my belt. I do not pledge or pray to the American flag because it doesn't belong to me/us. There are other reasons as well but they are matters outside the scope of this thread.

Are you saying that churches have no right to participate in the political process while all other groups do? Sorry, but I've heard that litany before and it smakes of political repression to me. I'm sure, though, that this is not what you mean or intend. As a veteran yourself, I'm sure that you are just as concerned with political rights for Christians as anybody else.

This thread is about fake money. As such the political as well as moral implications for citizens in general and the Christian community in particular is and should be of considerable importance. My point is that in reality it isn't.....to anybody. Proof is that none of the crooks that caused and profited by our economic difficulties are in prison, though they ought to be. That they are not is one proof that Washington is the puppet of the financial sector (and what flag does Washington display?).

As a Christian, I feel it is important for my group to address that issue.

[Choir Loft]

Monetary policy has nothing to do with morality? You can't be serious.

Henry Ford

Can be and am. Morality can influence the objectives of policy, but even that's a dodgy one. Monetary policy normally involves trading off inflation and output growth, which is more important for the wellbeing of individuals? Output growth generates jobs, low inflation means that real wages tend to stay high.

The point is, arguments about monetary policy are highly technical, and priests don't know shit about it unless they also happen to be economists.

Your argument keeps returning to the complexity of economic policy like a lazy horse running back to the barn to get his oats.

What is more important to the conduct of any business transaction? HONESTY.
There is nothing more important than truth and high moral standards with regard to having commerce with someone. Most men know about this, priests included.

The argument that the whole subject is complex and thus resides outside the purview of honesty sounds like a smoke screen to hide fraud and lies.

In fact, this sort of thing is exactly what plagues America today. Those who hold the purse strings open the account wide for their own profit and restrict it's benefits for everyone else (29% interest charges? That's usury man, plain and simple.). These matters are obvious to anyone who has been affected in the past few years and who has a modicum of knowledge of arithmetic.

The Bible says, "thou shalt not steal". The truth and impact of those words aren't limited to the religious, though they may be ignored by those who practice the dark arts of economic prestidigitation.

[Adstar]

Where Are the Christian Churches When We Need Them Most?

There is an urgent need for the Christian churches to remind their mindless flocks that it is immoral to counterfeit money.

It is just as wrong for me to print fake money to buy your car, for example, as it would be for me to steal it from you outright. The need for the Christian churches to emphasize this ethical precept does not, however, stem from a danger that the Christian masses will resort to the printing press themselves.

Instead, the danger lies in the likelihood that the Christian masses will have their entire life savings and livelihoods wiped out by profoundly immoral economic idiots working in collusion with government who believe that prosperity grows on trees.

Again, one would think that the Christian masses would already be aware that counterfeiting money is sickeningly immoral and economically destructive, but Christians of all stripes have done virtually nothing to stand up to this form of robbery.

This testifies, yet again, to the appalling stupidity of the Christian masses – even when they themselves are being victimized, and the desperate need for the Christian herd to be morally guided by the Christian churches.

Am I my brother's keeper?
How about my family or my community or my country?
Or should I just stick my head in the sand (or some other southern region) and restrict my activity to prayer alone?

(based on an article by Mark R. Crovelli)

I can only think your referring to the massive printing of money by the elites to bail out their business ?

When i look at the greater community outside the theist community i see no widespread understanding of the economic disaster being created by the elites mauver. But your post seems to be inferring that it is only the Christian churches who are blissfully unaware of the ramifications of the elites pumping out trillions of dollars. Yes hyperinflation as bad as it became in post world war 1 germany is coming again.


Quote from http://hubpages.com/hub/Hyperinflation_ ... _I_Germany

The Story of a Young Man Visiting Berlin in the 1920s

In the case of the Austrian fellow I met, he was visiting Berlin and had converted his Austrian currency into German currency. The inflation was such that the German mark, which could be exchanged for U.S. dollars in 1914 at the rate of approximately 4 marks to the dollar had, by 1923 reached the point where the exchange rate was approaching 1 trillion marks to the dollar. As a result, when my acquaintance exchanged his Austrian money for German money during his 1923 visit he needed a bag to carry the money. Having trouble finding his way around Berlin and sick of carrying his bag of money, this fellow decided to purchase a map which not only made finding his way around easier, but was also much easier to carry.

Germany Got hit with huge post war bill to pay compensation to other countries for the damage caused by WW1 they responded by Just printing the money and handing it over to pay off the bill.

Same with what the elites have done to bail out their businesses in the GFS those trillions will come back to haunt the masses in the forum of hyper inflation and the wiping out of the value of their investments. It's only a matter of time.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[EconAtheism101]

Yes hyperinflation as bad as it became in post world war 1 germany is coming again.

I bet $10,000 that inflation as measured by the CPI index in the united states of America will not exceed 20% in the next 10 years. At odds of, say, 30 to 1, that's $300,000 for you if you win, $10,000 for me if I win. Which I will.

The argument that the whole subject is complex and thus resides outside the purview of honesty sounds like a smoke screen to hide fraud and lies.

That's not what I'm arguing although I appreciate it might seem that way. Rather, I'm saying that I don't think that increasing the money supply as a macroeconomic policy mechanism is inherently dishonest, or good, or bad, it's entirely contingent, and the argument about whether it is those things should take place in the economic, not moral, discourse.

[Adstar]

Yes hyperinflation as bad as it became in post world war 1 germany is coming again.

I bet $10,000 that inflation as measured by the CPI index in the united states of America will not exceed 20% in the next 10 years. At odds of, say, 30 to 1, that's $300,000 for you if you win, $10,000 for me if I win. Which I will.

Well as a Christian i have a belief that is against gambling. So i cannot take you up on the monetary part of that.

But in spirit i will say it will happen kind of wager without money. Indeed the currency itself might be abandoned. And that indeed is the ultimate kind of hyperinflation isn't it.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Choir Loft]

That's not what I'm arguing although I appreciate it might seem that way. Rather, I'm saying that I don't think that increasing the money supply as a macroeconomic policy mechanism is inherently dishonest, or good, or bad, it's entirely contingent, and the argument about whether it is those things should take place in the economic, not moral, discourse.

You are still running back to the barn. In specifying that only those of equal education and experience have the credentials to discuss economic protocol you are rejecting those whom it affects, namely everybody else. That's pretty much what Wall Steet has been doing for the past few years.

If you restrict the scope of the argument (as well as economic transactions) to two persons only, then the only moral context of value would be that of the con artist. When such actions affect the entire community, nation or globe then it affects everyone and thus becomes a matter of criminal importance.

My basic argument is that there were honest men long before there were Christians.
There were traders that used honest scales before Moses walked the earth.
And if Cain and Able had been able to work out an equitable trade agreement the first murder wouldn't have been religiously motivated.

It's ALWAYS about morality. Shall we deal honestly with one another or shall we use educated manipulations to cheat? The bottom line in EVERY economic transaction IS truth and honesty. If there is none, then the whole thing collapses in the dust of treachery.

Every single empire, including the American empire, has collapsed when debauchery replaced honesty in the market place.

"On 16 September 1985, when the Commerce Department announced that the United States had become a debtor nation, the American Empire died."
-Gore Vidal

In the years since, the speed of collapse of the dollar has increased. Today many financiers are little more than vultures feeding on the dying carcass of the American economy. What began as a small news item in 1985 has become a subject on everybody's mind.

The wallet a man carries on his hip is only two feet from his heart.
Try to steal it from him and you'll get a hard lesson in morality really fast.

[EconAtheism101]

You are still running back to the barn. In specifying that only those of equal education and experience have the credentials to discuss economic protocol you are rejecting those whom it affects, namely everybody else. That's pretty much what Wall Steet has been doing for the past few years.

It depends what you're talking about. Monetary policy =/= all policies about finance and the economy. Clearly there is a need for plenty of regulation, especially of Wall street, and that's something everyone ought to push for who values things like honesty and equality. That's a conversation that everyone should take part in at some level.

When you get to things like actual monetary policy however, it's not something that people who don't know some monetary history and a bit of theory can really have a useful input on. Apart from anything else, the mechanism through which money supply is changed and influences the economy is non-obvious!

In terms of your more general argument about honesty, sure, more honesty would be great, but you can't really make a policy of that. I can't think of a golden age of honesty in the financial system we could emulate either!

[Choir Loft]

In terms of your more general argument about honesty, sure, more honesty would be great, but you can't really make a policy of that. I can't think of a golden age of honesty in the financial system we could emulate either!

Can't make a policy about it? Caveat emptor, right?

Quite the contrary, every state regulates professional activity and commerce in one way or another. Beyond state borders, merchandise and securities transactions had been regulated by general interstate law and governing agencies of the general government. (Note I use the past tense.)

One will always find a dishonest person or persons operating in the dark when easy money is to be made. Historically, however, there was a brief moment of "golden age honesty" following the crash of '29. Specifically my example relates to regulation of American finance beginning in the 1930's. It didn't last long and when WWII began all bets were off. The American 'golden age' began to unravel during the 50's and by January 1960 outgoing President Eisenhower was forced to warn of the dangers of American corruption.

A state can indeed make policy enforcing honesty, the problem is that human nature is so corrupt it doesn't last long. The pendulum of history always swings toward corruption decay and decline after a period of prosperity.

If you're looking for some sort of law, there it is.
It's kind of like the law of gravity.
What goes up, financially speaking, must come down.

The problem with the modern church is that no one wants to address financial reality.