The Rapture

[Chezles]

What is the rapture and when does it take place?

If we are raptured tomorrow, where is it that we go? Do we go to Heaven or just float around in the air until Christ brings us back to earth again?

Popular opinion states that:
Christians can be raptured at any moment. So the only ones left here on earth are those who are not saved, correct?

Then Christ returns after the Tribulation days and 'other' Christians are then raptured as well but not before those who are asleep are resurrected.
So there are two raptures?

None of this makes any sense to me.

[Adstar]

Hello Chezles.

What is the rapture and when does it take place?

The Rapture "caught up" is when followers of the Messiah Jesus who are still alive at the time of His second coming are lifted up into the sky and transformed in a moment into their eternal bodies.

If we are raptured tomorrow, where is it that we go? Do we go to Heaven or just float around in the air until Christ brings us back to earth again?

We are caught up to meet Jesus as He is coming down to earth. We will be coming down to earth with Him to rule the world for 1000 years.

Popular opinion states that:
Christians can be raptured at any moment. So the only ones left here on earth are those who are not saved, correct?

Then Christ returns after the Tribulation days and 'other' Christians are then ruptured as well but not before those who are asleep are resurrected.
So there are two raptures?

None of this makes any sense to me.

That would be pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. It is a theory that has received most publicity and therefore is the most widespread.

I am a post-tribulation rapture believer therefore i do not believe in two raptures.

As stated above i believe that the rapture happens at the second coming of the Messiah Jesus. So i believe Christians will go through the persecution/tribulation of the anti-christ as stated in many portions of scripture.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[fewwillfindit]

Thy did Jesus say "This generation shall in no wise pass till all these things be fullfilled" if he was talking of a much further event. i hold the same view as the reformed fathers. The other positions a pretty new in history. the early church was "post millenial" as per their writings.

Unless "this generation" is the future one he was prophesying about. It cannot be the generation contemporaneous to Christ, because, "all these things"; heavenly signs, Christ's final return, and the gathering of the elect did not happen in their lifetime.

P.S. Will someone tell presbyterian that I am on his ignore list? He must have done it accidentally as I cannot recall ever having cross words with him.

Sorry about the ignor list. i did not even know it existed!

No problem. It happened shortly after you joined, so I figured it was inadvertent.

Another evidence is this: Jesus said that "not one stone shall be left upon another" when speaking of the temple. this only ever accured in AD 70 by the Roman army and has never been rebuilt. As for Christs return, he does return all the time in judgement upon people and nations.

Yes, but this could be a dual prophecy, speaking of both the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and the future temple that is expected to be rebuilt. Remember, part of that prophecy contains this:

Matthew 24:14 - 15 (ESV) 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

And I believe this refers to it as well:

2 Thes.2:1-4 (ESV)Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

This was not fulfilled by Titus in AD 70, as he did not sit in the temple proclaiming to be God. Nor was it fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, as the common Jewish view states regarding Daniel, because the Gospel didn't even exist then, and had yet to be preached to the whole world. For the same reason, it could not have been Titus: the Gospel had not been preached to the whole world.

Matthew 24 also speaks of other things that have not yet happened:

Matthew 24:29 - 31 (ESV) 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just another point that has come to mind. If we are to go through a great tribulation how come "they are eating and drinking and given in marriage" when Christ returns. you cant have the worst tribulation ever and enjoy the "good" life at the same time.

That's a big "if." If the pre-tribulational rapture is correct, then it will be business as usual at the time of the rapture. This passage is one of the passages that are very convincing in favor of a pre-tribulational rapture.

Please may i add that it is dificult to express emotion by e mail so just for the record this is a friendly debate. brother to brother.

That is a given here. No worries.


Look. I would like nothing more than to embrace the fully reformed preterist views if for no other reason than to have complete unity with my reformed bretheren. I can't stand being "partially" anything. I would love to confess that I am "fully" reformed. I am most definitely reformed when it comes to soteriology, as I assume you are if you are a Presbyterian. Presbyterians are about the closest reflection of my Biblical views of any denomination, but I cannot become Presbyterian because they hold to preterism. Part and parcel with preterism is Covenant Theology, which I view as repackaged Replacement Theology. I cannot subscribe to any from of eschatology which assumes that the Church has replaced Israel. Dispensationalism, to which I subscribe, has a very cohesive, rational eschatology while allowing for the Jews to retain their covenental promises. This allows for a systematic consistent eschatology while not conflicting with Romans and the rest of the Scriptures that make it clear that God has not abandoned the nation of Israel; for just as we are His elect, so are they, and they are distinct from us.

[PRESBYTERIAN]

Thy did Jesus say "This generation shall in no wise pass till all these things be fullfilled" if he was talking of a much further event. i hold the same view as the reformed fathers. The other positions a pretty new in history. the early church was "post millenial" as per their writings.

Unless "this generation" is the future one he was prophesying about. It cannot be the generation contemporaneous to Christ, because, "all these things"; heavenly signs, Christ's final return, and the gathering of the elect did not happen in their lifetime.

P.S. Will someone tell presbyterian that I am on his ignore list? He must have done it accidentally as I cannot recall ever having cross words with him.

Sorry about the ignor list. i did not even know it existed!

No problem. It happened shortly after you joined, so I figured it was inadvertent.

Another evidence is this: Jesus said that "not one stone shall be left upon another" when speaking of the temple. this only ever accured in AD 70 by the Roman army and has never been rebuilt. As for Christs return, he does return all the time in judgement upon people and nations.

Yes, but this could be a dual prophecy, speaking of both the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and the future temple that is expected to be rebuilt. Remember, part of that prophecy contains this:

Matthew 24:14 - 15 (ESV) 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

And I believe this refers to it as well:

2 Thes.2:1-4 (ESV)Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

This was not fulfilled by Titus in AD 70, as he did not sit in the temple proclaiming to be God. Nor was it fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, as the common Jewish view states regarding Daniel, because the Gospel didn't even exist then, and had yet to be preached to the whole world. For the same reason, it could not have been Titus: the Gospel had not been preached to the whole world.

Matthew 24 also speaks of other things that have not yet happened:

Matthew 24:29 - 31 (ESV) 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just another point that has come to mind. If we are to go through a great tribulation how come "they are eating and drinking and given in marriage" when Christ returns. you cant have the worst tribulation ever and enjoy the "good" life at the same time.

That's a big "if." If the pre-tribulational rapture is correct, then it will be business as usual at the time of the rapture. This passage is one of the passages that are very convincing in favor of a pre-tribulational rapture.

Please may i add that it is dificult to express emotion by e mail so just for the record this is a friendly debate. brother to brother.

That is a given here. No worries.


Look. I would like nothing more than to embrace the fully reformed preterist views if for no other reason than to have complete unity with my reformed bretheren. I can't stand being "partially" anything. I would love to confess that I am "fully" reformed. I am most definitely reformed when it comes to soteriology, as I assume you are if you are a Presbyterian. Presbyterians are about the closest reflection of my Biblical views of any denomination, but I cannot become Presbyterian because they hold to preterism. Part and parcel with preterism is Covenant Theology, which I view as repackaged Replacement Theology. I cannot subscribe to any from of eschatology which assumes that the Church has replaced Israel. Dispensationalism, to which I subscribe, has a very cohesive, rational eschatology while allowing for the Jews to retain their covenental promises. This allows for a systematic consistent eschatology while not conflicting with Romans and the rest of the Scriptures that make it clear that God has not abandoned the nation of Israel; for just as we are His elect, so are they, and they are distinct from us.

I may upset some people with what i am about to say but it must be said. The man of sin spoken of in 2 thes 2 is the papacy which held total power over europe for 1260 years (this is taught in rev 13 as the second beast. the first beast was the pagan Roman empire and the second is the Holy Roman empire. The pope healed the wound of the fallen Roman empire by setting up the seat of emperor again) none of this is my opinion but was well known right up to only the last couple of hundred years. and was believed by Tyndale, Wycliffe, Luther, Spurgeon and ALL early church fathers, But it has been slowly painted over with new theories which are decieving the visable church.

Also the abomination of desolation spoken of was carried out by the Romans by the sacrifice of a pig to one of the Roman gods( i believe it is detailed in the writings of Josephus which greatly detail the horrific destruction of Jerusalem. You will also read of the signs that many saw in the sky just before this happened)

There are plans at the moment to rebuild the temple but God will never allow this to take place as He destroyed the temple in AD 70 due to the fact that they refused to end animal sacrifices after the messiah had come.

[PRESBYTERIAN]

Thy did Jesus say "This generation shall in no wise pass till all these things be fullfilled" if he was talking of a much further event. i hold the same view as the reformed fathers. The other positions a pretty new in history. the early church was "post millenial" as per their writings.

Unless "this generation" is the future one he was prophesying about. It cannot be the generation contemporaneous to Christ, because, "all these things"; heavenly signs, Christ's final return, and the gathering of the elect did not happen in their lifetime.

P.S. Will someone tell presbyterian that I am on his ignore list? He must have done it accidentally as I cannot recall ever having cross words with him.

Sorry about the ignor list. i did not even know it existed!

No problem. It happened shortly after you joined, so I figured it was inadvertent.

Another evidence is this: Jesus said that "not one stone shall be left upon another" when speaking of the temple. this only ever accured in AD 70 by the Roman army and has never been rebuilt. As for Christs return, he does return all the time in judgement upon people and nations.

Yes, but this could be a dual prophecy, speaking of both the destruction of the temple in AD 70 and the future temple that is expected to be rebuilt. Remember, part of that prophecy contains this:

Matthew 24:14 - 15 (ESV) 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. 15“So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand)

And I believe this refers to it as well:

2 Thes.2:1-4 (ESV)Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

This was not fulfilled by Titus in AD 70, as he did not sit in the temple proclaiming to be God. Nor was it fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes, as the common Jewish view states regarding Daniel, because the Gospel didn't even exist then, and had yet to be preached to the whole world. For the same reason, it could not have been Titus: the Gospel had not been preached to the whole world.

Matthew 24 also speaks of other things that have not yet happened:

Matthew 24:29 - 31 (ESV) 29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just another point that has come to mind. If we are to go through a great tribulation how come "they are eating and drinking and given in marriage" when Christ returns. you cant have the worst tribulation ever and enjoy the "good" life at the same time.

That's a big "if." If the pre-tribulational rapture is correct, then it will be business as usual at the time of the rapture. This passage is one of the passages that are very convincing in favor of a pre-tribulational rapture.

Please may i add that it is dificult to express emotion by e mail so just for the record this is a friendly debate. brother to brother.

That is a given here. No worries.


Look. I would like nothing more than to embrace the fully reformed preterist views if for no other reason than to have complete unity with my reformed bretheren. I can't stand being "partially" anything. I would love to confess that I am "fully" reformed. I am most definitely reformed when it comes to soteriology, as I assume you are if you are a Presbyterian. Presbyterians are about the closest reflection of my Biblical views of any denomination, but I cannot become Presbyterian because they hold to preterism. Part and parcel with preterism is Covenant Theology, which I view as repackaged Replacement Theology. I cannot subscribe to any from of eschatology which assumes that the Church has replaced Israel. Dispensationalism, to which I subscribe, has a very cohesive, rational eschatology while allowing for the Jews to retain their covenental promises. This allows for a systematic consistent eschatology while not conflicting with Romans and the rest of the Scriptures that make it clear that God has not abandoned the nation of Israel; for just as we are His elect, so are they, and they are distinct from us.

I was in achurch that believed in dispensationalism and found that it only served the flesh. I mean imagine if we were taken up in the air and never had to face any trib! I also declare that any Jew ,Chineese, or Eskimo who passes away without Christ will perish so how can Israel be treated seperately. Yes they will be saved in the last days. Yes they are beloved for the fathers sake. But they must repent like every other nation to be saved. Millions of Jewish have died unforgiven since the 1st century because they rejected the preaching of the apostles, which is why they turned to the Gentiles(us)

I may upset some people with what i am about to say but it must be said. The man of sin spoken of in 2 thes 2 is the papacy which held total power over europe for 1260 years (this is taught in rev 13 as the second beast. the first beast was the pagan Roman empire and the second is the Holy Roman empire. The pope healed the wound of the fallen Roman empire by setting up the seat of emperor again) none of this is my opinion but was well known right up to only the last couple of hundred years. and was believed by Tyndale, Wycliffe, Luther, Spurgeon and ALL early church fathers, But it has been slowly painted over with new theories which are decieving the visable church.

Also the abomination of desolation spoken of was carried out by the Romans by the sacrifice of a pig to one of the Roman gods( i believe it is detailed in the writings of Josephus which greatly detail the horrific destruction of Jerusalem. You will also read of the signs that many saw in the sky just before this happened)

There are plans at the moment to rebuild the temple but God will never allow this to take place as He destroyed the temple in AD 70 due to the fact that they refused to end animal sacrifices after the messiah had come.

[olddocbenway]

What is the rapture and when does it take place?

If we are raptured tomorrow, where is it that we go? Do we go to Heaven or just float around in the air until Christ brings us back to earth again?

Popular opinion states that:
Christians can be raptured at any moment. So the only ones left here on earth are those who are not saved, correct?

Then Christ returns after the Tribulation days and 'other' Christians are then raptured as well but not before those who are asleep are resurrected.
So there are two raptures?

None of this makes any sense to me.

Does Jesus even talk about The Rapture? Isn't it just Paul in his letters?

[PRESBYTERIAN]

What is the rapture and when does it take place?

If we are raptured tomorrow, where is it that we go? Do we go to Heaven or just float around in the air until Christ brings us back to earth again?

Popular opinion states that:
Christians can be raptured at any moment. So the only ones left here on earth are those who are not saved, correct?

Then Christ returns after the Tribulation days and 'other' Christians are then raptured as well but not before those who are asleep are resurrected.
So there are two raptures?

None of this makes any sense to me.

Does Jesus even talk about The Rapture? Isn't it just Paul in his letters?

There will be a ressurection at the end of world history and believers who are already dead and those that are alive will be caught up to meet Christ in the air. At the same time (john 5 :28) the wicked/lost will also be ressurected and fire will come down from heaven (The second destruction of the earth. the first was Noahs flood) and destroy the earth and them. Then the great judgement shall take place followed by the renewing of THIS earth (There will be no sea) we shall descend and take posession of our new home for ever! If you want the scripture refs for all this i will give them but i am short of time at moment.God bless

[PRESBYTERIAN]

Hello all

As already stated the Word Rapture is biblical. it simply is an english version of a Latin word translation for Caught up.


Anyway to make it brief.

The rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the Messiah Jesus. On that Day true followers of the Messiah who are alive and remain on earth (most will have already been kill by that day) will be transformed into their eternal bodies and be caught up into the sky to meet Jesus upon his arrival. They will then come right back down to earth with Him and rule the earth for 1000 years with Him

What happens after the 1000 years of Christs and our rule. do we no longer rule?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Hello all

As already stated the Word Rapture is biblical. it simply is an english version of a Latin word translation for Caught up.


Anyway to make it brief.

The rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the Messiah Jesus. On that Day true followers of the Messiah who are alive and remain on earth (most will have already been kill by that day) will be transformed into their eternal bodies and be caught up into the sky to meet Jesus upon his arrival. They will then come right back down to earth with Him and rule the earth for 1000 years with Him

What happens after the 1000 years of Christs and our rule. do we no longer rule?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The 1000 years is only the time between the second coming of the Messiah Jesus and the final Judgement. At the end of the 1000 years satan will be released from the bottomless pit and go out into the nations and deceive them once again and lead them to attempt an attack on Jerusalem and the camp of the saints. This army will be destroyed and satan will be cast into the eternal lake of fire. Then the final great white throne Judgement will happen. then the New Jerusalem will come out of Heaven and come down upon earth and then God will be on earth with us for ever and ever. The End

All Praise The Ancient Of Days