Israel's Racist policies finally under Church disapproval

[DeBunkem]

It's a tepid, but good, start.

Presbyterians: End Israel aid over settlements
By PATRICK CONDON, Associated Press Writer Patrick Condon, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jul 10, 12:29 am ET

.MINNEAPOLIS – Presbyterian leaders strongly backed a proposal Friday that included a call to end U.S. aid to Israel unless the country stops settlement expansions in disputed Palestinian territories.

But they said the 172-page report, which details their church's approach to issues in the Middle East, was a sincere effort to mend long-standing fractures between the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) and Jewish groups.

It earned qualified praise but also criticism from pro-Israel organizations, which have long taken issue with various Presbyterian statements on Middle East peace.

Church delegates approved the report by an 82 percent vote during the church's general assembly in Minneapolis. It's meant as a comprehensive guide to the denomination's more than 2 million members on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"We feel we've brought together people who previously had trouble talking about some of these issues together," said Rev. Karen Dimon, pastor at Northminster Presbyterian Church in North Syracuse, N.Y., and chairwoman of the committee that produced the report.

Ethan Felson, vice president of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, said he still took issue with major aspects of the report, but said it contained "important signals" that could lessen long-standing tension between Presbyterians and pro-Israel Jews. He said it strengthens support for Israel's right to exist and removes comparisons of Israeli policy to apartheid.

"Concerns remain, but I have hope that authentic dialogue and better relations can come of this," Felson said.

The Anti-Defamation League said the report managed to "avoid a rupture with Jewish people, but bias against Israel continues." The Simon Wiesenthal Center said the report "takes definite sides in a complex struggle."

But the Rev. J.C. Austin, director of the Center for Christian Leadership at New York City's Auburn Seminary, disagreed.

"We are refusing to designate a winner or loser," said Austin, who helped prepare the report.

The denomination's relationship with Jewish groups took a hit in 2004, when the church's general assembly voted to authorize "phased selective divestment in multinational corporations operating in Israel" because of Israel's policies toward Palestinians. That stance has since been softened, and this year convention delegates voted down an amendment to the Middle East report that would have put divestment back on the table.

Despite the strong convention vote, some delegates expressed concern that the Middle East report remained too slanted toward a Palestinian perspective.

"There are many longtime friends in the Jewish community who believe this report misstates Jewish theology and misquotes the Jewish voice," said the Rev. Susan Zencka, pastor at Frame Memorial Presbyterian Church in Stevens Point, Wis. "We have come to a position of Palestine good, Israel bad. Life is not that simple."

But supporters stressed that the overarching goal of the report is to encourage activism toward peace in the Middle East.

"I fully support a state of Israel, but I also believe Israel's peace will not come until they seek peace with Palestinians," said Dottie Villesvik, a church elder from Everett, Wash.

The church's annual convention is scheduled through Saturday. It began July 3.

http://tinyurl.com/2bd6nmf

[WinePusher]

I should provide documentation for YOUR claims? Please review the rules, you obviously haven't.

Why golly gee, winepusher! It looks like I just did!

"Too hard for you to do your own homework, huh?"

Look at that quote, do you recognize it? It was the quote I was responding to. You only documented your claim after I asked you to, and then you accuse me of "not doing my homework." Do you see how deceitful that is?

I object to all foreign aid, military and otherwise. But of those nations, I object to Israel most of all.

We should isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and reject any type of aid to a needy country. Is this your philosophy?

Before providing a reasonable response to your pressumputious and fringe post, let me lay out YOUR beliefs as you feel comfortable to tell ME what I believe. You want to surrender our sovernigity to other nations, and turn us into a nanny state.

I'll tell you what you believe as long as you continue to believe it.

Do you see how surreal this statement is? Do you consider yourself an expert on determining other peoples beleifs?

And don't tell me about a nanny state.

So you can tell me what I believe, but I can't tell you what you believe. I always thought libertarians were above this type of debate tactic.

It's you closet liberals that pushed for DOMA, pushed for PATRIOT, and will continue to push until Roe is overturned.

Marrige, National Security and Abortion, if you would like to disscuss these topics please create another thread. As a side note, the fact that you call us "closet liberals" shows your inherant misunderstanding of both political philosophies; it is the liberal wing that generally supports gay marriage, it is the Obama admin. that supports civilian trials and miranda rights for terrorists, it is pelosi and her corrupt congress that supports unrestricted abortion rights.

And it isn't America's job to share her liberty like the socialists want to share her wealth, is it?

I believe its America's job to look out for her own interests, and America shouldn't be the "policeman of the world" but it should be a universal defender of liberty.

Ayn Rand was a sell-out and intellectual lightweight.

Was She??????Is this another one of your blanketed opinions that have no factual proof?

[TheLibertarian]

Look at that quote, do you recognize it? It was the quote I was responding to. You only documented your claim after I asked you to, and then you accuse me of "not doing my homework." Do you see how deceitful that is?

Not as dishonest as your feigning ignorance as to the economic burden of our yearly welfare checks to Israel. But you're a Christian, so I can forgive the deceit I've come to expect from your ilk.

We should isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and reject any type of aid to a needy country. Is this your philosophy?

It was also the philosophy of the Founders.

Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none.

Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens,) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake; since history and experience prove, that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of Republican Government. But that jealousy, to be useful, must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defence against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation, and excessive dislike of another, cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots, who may resist the intrigues of the favorite, are liable to become suspected and odious; while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connexion as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop.

Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people, under an efficient government, the period is not far off, when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality, we may at any time resolve upon, to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor, or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Do you see how surreal this statement is? Do you consider yourself an expert on determining other peoples beleifs?

When you wear your self-described "neo-con" (read: "socialist") beliefs on your sleeve, I'm going to read them off to you.

So you can tell me what I believe, but I can't tell you what you believe. I always thought libertarians were above this type of debate tactic.

And I always thought conservatives were above selling out our national interest to Israel.

Marrige, National Security and Abortion, if you would like to disscuss these topics please create another thread. As a side note, the fact that you call us "closet liberals" shows your inherant misunderstanding of both political philosophies; it is the liberal wing that generally supports gay marriage, it is the Obama admin. that supports civilian trials and miranda rights for terrorists, it is pelosi and her corrupt congress that supports unrestricted abortion rights.

This just... I don't even.

No, you dolt: I call you a closet liberal for trying to expand the government into areas it has no right to be in - such as, for instance, the private lives of its citizens. Gay marriage and abortion bother me not a whit. Does your conscience bother you?

*snip*

[micatala]

Moderator Intervention

Look at that quote, do you recognize it? It was the quote I was responding to. You only documented your claim after I asked you to, and then you accuse me of "not doing my homework." Do you see how deceitful that is?

Not as dishonest as your feigning ignorance as to the economic burden of our yearly welfare checks to Israel. But you're a Christian, so I can forgive the deceit I've come to expect from your ilk.

No, you dolt: I call you a closet liberal for trying to expand the government into areas it has no right to be in - such as, for instance, the private lives of its citizens. Gay marriage and abortion bother me not a whit. Does your conscience bother you?

*snip*

These comments are uncivil.

Let's not throw accusations of dishonesty around as insults. If you feel a poster has contradicted themselves or is being inconsistent in their arguments, you can point that out without name-calling.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

Presbyterian leaders strongly backed a proposal Friday that included a call to end U.S. aid to Israel unless the country stops settlement expansions in disputed Palestinian territories.

I could get behind that, as long as there is also the call for Palestinians to quit lobbing bombs into Israel 'proper'.

...
But supporters stressed that the overarching goal of the report is to encourage activism toward peace in the Middle East.

"I fully support a state of Israel, but I also believe Israel's peace will not come until they seek peace with Palestinians," said Dottie Villesvik, a church elder from Everett, Wash.

Speaking has solved little in the past. I propose folks quit shooting and bombing, and hiding among civilians to do so.

On the image used to represent this topic, I propose the image is inflammatory rhetoric devoid of the complex context the issue entertains. It is not the Muslim nations surrounded by the arms of Israel, but Israel encircled by those who vocally and actionably seek its annihilation.

[WinePusher]

Not as dishonest as your feigning ignorance as to the economic burden of our yearly welfare checks to Israel.

Is it dishonest for somebody to ask for appropriate documentation when a claim is thrown out? The fact is, you said the U.S sends billions of dollars in aid to Israel, even if I alrady know this I expect an honest person to back up their claim with documentation so I, and the readers, know that your not lying to prove a point.

But you're a Christian, so I can forgive the deceit I've come to expect from your ilk.

Keep up the comments like this and we won't be seeing much of you.......

When you wear your self-described "neo-con" (read: "socialist") beliefs on your sleeve, I'm going to read them off to you.

Ohhhhh, your statements flow from your misunderstanding of conservatism. Thats fair enough.

And I always thought conservatives were above selling out our national interest to Israel.

What "national interests" have we sold out to Israel?

No, you dolt:

I hope you learn from moderator warnings.

I call you a closet liberal for trying to expand the government into areas it has no right to be in - such as, for instance, the private lives of its citizens.

It seems that you are again confusing foreign policy with Israel and Domestic policy. I don't believe we have even disscussed anything about the expansion of government into citizen's lives, this is a THREAD ABOUT ISRAEL. Maybe you missed that, but I have made no claim on the expansion of government into american lives. A complete red herring, it seems that those who engage in diversion tend to do so because there current argument cannot withstand scrutiny.

Gay marriage and abortion bother me not a whit.

Was it you who mentioned Roe and DOMA, do you know what these are?

Does your conscience bother you?

Not at all.

[DeBunkem]

Where did I claim that? I support the United States allying itself with Israel and supporting it by all means, including reasonable monetary contributions, but I haven't seen any dollar amounts from a respectable think tank or newspaper. You and DeBunkem have just thrown out numbers in the billions without any documentation.

What has israel ever done for us? The attack on the USS Liberty, napalming our sailors and strafing them in liferafts? Lowering our standing in the rest of the world for sharing in the brutalization of a people? Why should we send them a dime?

For a detailed report see: http://tinyurl.com/24ohx7c

It notes many uncounted sources of aid going to Israel instead of us:

It must be emphasized that this analysis is a conservative, defensible accounting of U.S. direct aid to Israel, NOT of Israel’s cost to the U.S. or the American taxpayer, nor of the benefits to Israel of U.S. aid. The distinction is important, because the indirect or consequential costs suffered by the U.S. as a result of its blind support for Israel exceed by many times the substantial amount of direct aid to Israel. (See, for example, the late Thomas R. Stauffer’s article in the June 2003 Washington Report, “The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion.�)

[DeBunkem]

Palestinian rockets? Not much more than giant Estes models. Doesn't Israel always say they have a legitimate right to defend themselves? So don't the Palestinians, even if symbolic? A few muzzle-loading cannons would be more effective. When did so many in the US lose their disdain of bullies and unfair fights?

[Jrosemary]

From the OP:

Presbyterian leaders strongly backed a proposal Friday that included a call to end U.S. aid to Israel unless the country stops settlement expansions in disputed Palestinian territories.

I could get behind that, as long as there is also the call for Palestinians to quit lobbing bombs into Israel 'proper'.

...
But supporters stressed that the overarching goal of the report is to encourage activism toward peace in the Middle East.

"I fully support a state of Israel, but I also believe Israel's peace will not come until they seek peace with Palestinians," said Dottie Villesvik, a church elder from Everett, Wash.

Speaking has solved little in the past. I propose folks quit shooting and bombing, and hiding among civilians to do so.

On the image used to represent this topic, I propose the image is inflammatory rhetoric devoid of the complex context the issue entertains. It is not the Muslim nations surrounded by the arms of Israel, but Israel encircled by those who vocally and actionably seek its annihilation.

Well said, Joey.

I think Israel should, at this point, freeze the settlements--but, unfortunately, I don't think it will do much good. The powers-that-be among the Palestinians don't seem to have any real interest in a two-state solution; they seem to want to wipe Israel off the map. Just as Israel withdrawing from Gaza didn't help anything; as soon as Israel withdrew, the powers-that-be in Gaza started launching rockets into Israel. Not a recipe for peace or a two-state solution.

However, there are glimmers of hope, and there is a peaceful, non-violent protest movement against the settlements in disputed areas growing among some Palestinians. (Haaretz has some articles about it.) That is, I think, the smartest move politically the Palestinians can make, and maybe it will help pave the way to a lasting (and peaceful) two state solution.

Edit: For those not familiar with Israeli papers, Haaretz (pronounced ha-AR-etz) is available online in an English edition. It's generally considered the most influential paper in Israel. Full disclosure: Lots of people think Haaretz has a bleeding-heart, left-wing, liberal, anti-settlement bias. If you want a more conservative look at Israeli affairs, there's an English paper on-line called The Jerusalem Post. But I prefer Haaretz.

[cnorman18]

Thought I’d post a bit more from the site linked in DeBunkem’s post above. Readers may draw their own conclusions about the reliability of any “evidence� from this site, not to mention about DeBunkem’s characteristic sources.

…The 9-11 attacks were 100% a Mossad operation as the facts point directly to Mossad, it is absolutely undeniable that Israel attacked us in a do or die, all or nothing attack to bring the USA into attacking Muslim countries.

It is time for the truth to come out and the U. S. Military to do it’s [sic] job to wipe the true terrorist nation off the map forever. Most of the world knows Israel is the true axis of evil except for the brainwashed zombies and bribed politicians in America and Britain. Intelligent Americans who have done their own research instead of relying on the Jewish controlled media are the only ones who know the truth about blood sucking Israel.

Please notice that this writer is not advocating only the end of foreign aid to Israel. He explicitly advocates a military attack on Israel by the US with the intent of eliminating Israel's existence entirely - in other words, recruiting the resources of the US military to serve the murderous goals of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Brigade, et. al.

I would agree that it’s always a good thing when the truth comes out, including blatant and vicious anti-Semitic hatred and bigotry. “Blood sucking Israel� and “Jewish-controlled media� are dead giveaways, not to mention the claim of Israeli involvement in 9-11 as an established and “undeniable� fact.

I don’t think any further comment is necessary. It isn’t my intention to enter the debate here, just provide relevant and factual information about sources.

[Jrosemary]

Thought I’d post a bit more from the site linked in DeBunkem’s post above. Readers may draw their own conclusions about the reliability of any “evidence� from this site, not to mention about DeBunkem’s characteristic sources.

…The 9-11 attacks were 100% a Mossad operation as the facts point directly to Mossad, it is absolutely undeniable that Israel attacked us in a do or die, all or nothing attack to bring the USA into attacking Muslim countries.

It is time for the truth to come out and the U. S. Military to do it’s [sic] job to wipe the true terrorist nation off the map forever. Most of the world knows Israel is the true axis of evil except for the brainwashed zombies and bribed politicians in America and Britain. Intelligent Americans who have done their own research instead of relying on the Jewish controlled media are the only ones who know the truth about blood sucking Israel.

Please notice that this writer is not advocating only the end of foreign aid to Israel. He explicitly advocates a military attack on Israel by the US with the intent of eliminating Israel's existence entirely - in other words, recruiting the resources of the US military to serve the murderous goals of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, the Al-Aqsa Brigade, et. al.

I would agree that it’s always a good thing when the truth comes out, including blatant and vicious anti-Semitic hatred and bigotry. “Blood sucking Israel� and “Jewish-controlled media� are dead giveaways, not to mention the claim of Israeli involvement in 9-11 as an established and “undeniable� fact.

I don’t think any further comment is necessary. It isn’t my intention to enter the debate here, just provide relevant and factual information about sources.

Thanks for the research, Cnorman! You'd think people would get tired of blaming Israel and Jews for all the evils of the world.

I'm currently disappointed that I'm not going to be spending August in Israel as planned--I ended up having to take summer classes--because as much as some Israeli policies drive me crazy, overall I have a lot of affection for this scrappy, self-starting nation that's not only survived against near-impossible odds, but has proved so darn technologically innovative. No wonder it attracts so much venture capitalism!

I love the forthrightness and informality and, yeah, sheer chutzpah of Israeli culture, too. There are so many things I love about Israel.

But that doesn't mean I can't critique it. I don't like the Orthodox control over the Jewish religion. I'd freeze the settlements on the off chance that it will do some good. I'll keep praying for a peaceful two-state solution.

Likewise, the U.S. can support Israel without agreeing with all Israeli policies--just like it supports lots of nations without agreeing with all their policies. And if Obama wants to make another push about the settlements I'm all for it.

I would like to see the full document of the Presbyterian Church's censure of Israel--the first version I saw actually told Israel to take down the wall! That was just unbelievable. What world are they living in? Israel may need to change the location of parts of the wall, but that wall itself has been instrumental in preventing suicide bombers. Taking it down anytime soon would be sheer madness.