Murder of abortion provider George Tiller

[otseng]

http://www.kansas.com/946/story/834444.html

With one bullet, a gunman ended the life and the controversial career of abortion doctor George Tiller, killing him as he stood in the foyer of his church Sunday.

Tiller, 67, was shot once just after 10 a.m. Sunday as he stood in the lobby of Reformation Lutheran Church, 7601 E. 13th St., where he was serving as an usher. The gunman threatened to shoot two men who tried to apprehend him.

Although Wichita police would not name the suspect, the Johnson County Sheriff's Office identified him as Scott P. Roeder, according to the Associated Press.

For debate:
Was Roeder justified in killing Tiller?

[MagusYanam]

OK, maybe I am not up on the current state of the anti-abortionist arguments. Have they, for the most part, stopped claiming that it is murder? Have they moved on to some other primary moral failing of abortion other than it ends a human life? Have I been isolated so long from the debate that I have missed this sea change in the other side?

My bad if that's what I was implying. I was describing my own beliefs and feelings about abortion - I consider myself anti-abortion, but I've had an extreme distaste for the tactics and argumentation used by many pro-life groups for quite some time, and I've come more recently to the conclusion that though abortion is still wrong, it would be a severe moral distortion to call it murder.

It isn't wrong because the foetus is a full human being and entitled to the same legal rights, it's wrong because the relationship a good parent is supposed to have to her child is cut off by abortion, and often for reasons of convenience (which I find repugnant). I can understand if it's like the situation in Brazil a couple of months ago where the mother was probably going to die if she carried the foeti to term and the foeti would not have survived in any case, and I'm not about to take an absolutist line against abortion, but neither am I going to take up the position that abortion should be available as an absolute right (without consideration of other responsibilities).

[Goat]

Do all of these folks condemn capital punishment? Are they all opposed to all forms of war?

I think that's another area for debate. But, briefly, I do not think it's relevant because capital punishment is for those pronounced guilty by the state. In terms of Tiller, it was one man's judgement.

If you really believe that huge numbers of humans are being murdered by the abortion procedure, then why not strike back in defense of the victims?

Like you said, it's against Christian ethics. "Christianity clearly teaches that taking vengeance is not the appropriate role for the follower of Christ, so even if the abortionist is a murderer, this kind of vigilante justice is not appropriate."

A little more about Tiller.

He was the medical director of a women's health care clinic in Wichita, Women's Health Care Services, one of only three nationwide which would provide abortion after the 21st week of pregnancy (known as late-term abortion).

Tiller had intended to go back to Wichita, close up his father's family practice and then go back to become a dermatologist. However, he quickly felt pressure to take over his father's family practice. Tiller's father had performed abortions at his practice. After hearing about a woman that had died from an illegal abortion, Tiller stayed in Wichita to continue his father's practice.

Some of Tiller's patients discovered late in pregnancy that their fetuses had severe or fatal birth defects, but he also aborted healthy late-term fetuses in cases where this would prevent "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" for the mother.

Kansas law prohibits aborting viable fetuses, which is generally midway through the second trimester, unless two doctors certify that continuing the pregnancy would cause the woman "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function."

The suspect had been a member of the anti-government Freemen group and was convicted in 1996 on explosives charges after police officers discovered fuse cord, a pound of gunpowder and nine-volt batteries in the trunk his car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Tiller

A key here is that "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" for the mother.


There are very specific rules for doing late term abortions, and they include a non-viable fetus and "substantial and irreversible impairment of a major bodily function" for the mother.


The rhetoric of the 'right to life' people are interfering with the health and well being of women who are pregnant, and have medical reasons for abortions. I am sure many of these women would had late term abortions would very heartbroken over the need.

Jewish law says that in situations where the mothers heatlh/life is an issue, an abortion should be performed. I would not be surprised if many of these women who had late term abortions did it as a last resort because of medical reasons (if not all).

[McCulloch]

[...] it would be a severe moral distortion to call it murder.

We agree.

It isn't wrong because the foetus is a full human being and entitled to the same legal rights, it's wrong because the relationship a good parent is supposed to have to her child is cut off by abortion, and often for reasons of convenience (which I find repugnant).

We agree again. However, I have doubts about just how many women really just have an abortion (especially a late term one) merely for convenience. When a woman finds out that she is pregnant, particularly when the pregnancy is not planned and not wanted, that is probably all that she can think about. She does not lightly volunteer for a surgical procedure without a fair bit of soul searching and thought. I don't think that late term (past 21 weeks) abortion should be done for convenience, but I cannot see an adequate way for a law to be drawn up to enforce that. The best ones to determine this is to leave it up to the woman and her doctor.

I'm not about to take an absolutist line against abortion, but neither am I going to take up the position that abortion should be available as an absolute right (without consideration of other responsibilities).

I can agree with you. When the nut jobs and radicals have manipulated governments into making family planning difficult to access (waiting periods, consent to treatment, parental consent, medical professionals opting out, deliberately misleading and erroneous information spread by governments as sex education) then the problem is not too free access but access is too restrictive.

[otseng]

Here is what I could find regarding abortion laws in Kansas:

[row] Statutory Definition of Illegal Abortion [col]To perform or induce abortion when fetus is viable, that is, in attending physician's best medical judgement, fetus is capable of sustained survival outside the uterus without extraordinary medical means [row] Statutory Definition of Legal Abortion [col]As long as fetus is not viable (and mother's informed consent obtained); abortion of viable fetus permitted if 2nd M.D. certifies that abortion is necessary to preserve life of mother or fetus has severe, life-threatening deformity or abnormality

http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/abortion/kansas/

[MagusYanam]

Thanks, otseng!

Does this mean, then, that the abortions this fellow was carrying out were only on foeti which would not have survived birth anyway, or which would have if carried to term endangered the life of the mother?

[Goat]

Thanks, otseng!

Does this mean, then, that the abortions this fellow was carrying out were only on foeti which would not have survived birth anyway, or which would have if carried to term endangered the life of the mother?

If we assumed that everything was according to law, and right now, there is no evidence to the contrary, then that is correct.

[otseng]

Thanks, otseng!

Does this mean, then, that the abortions this fellow was carrying out were only on foeti which would not have survived birth anyway, or which would have if carried to term endangered the life of the mother?

If we assumed that everything was according to law, and right now, there is no evidence to the contrary, then that is correct.

Yes, it would appear so if he followed the law.

[otseng]

I found Tiller's website:

http://www.drtiller.com/

It simply says now:

This site is temporarily offline.

Please be respectful of their privacy.

His church's statement:

The Reformation Lutheran Church family is shocked and deeply saddened by the violent murder of Dr. George Tiller, a longtime member of our congregation, that occurred in our church home May 31.

Our congregation strives to be a safe place for all people. We deplore the violence that took place within the walls of our church. Further, we reject any notion that violence against another human being is an acceptable way to resolve differences over any issue. We must always strive to engage in peaceful discussion. Our faith calls us to this. Our humanity demands it.

In the wake of this tragic event, our deepest concern is for the family of George Tiller. We ask the community to join us in prayer for them as they face the difficult days ahead. Our hearts ache with them. We also ask that the family's privacy be respected.

Members of Reformation Lutheran Church have been deeply affected by this tragedy. To address their needs, we are assembling a team of crisis intervention specialists.

In this time of uncertainty, we stand firm in the promises of Jesus Christ: forgiveness, hope, love, and new life, even from death. We pray for healing and peace to be restored. We offer our thanks for the many prayers of support from across the country. Your words of encouragement are a blessing to the people of Reformation Lutheran Church and Wichita.

http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/

Also, I was thinking about the irony in that Tiller was one of the few doctors who did late term abortions, but also seems to be a Christian.

[Goat]

I found Tiller's website:

http://www.drtiller.com/

It simply says now:

This site is temporarily offline.

Please be respectful of their privacy.

His church's statement:

The Reformation Lutheran Church family is shocked and deeply saddened by the violent murder of Dr. George Tiller, a longtime member of our congregation, that occurred in our church home May 31.

Our congregation strives to be a safe place for all people. We deplore the violence that took place within the walls of our church. Further, we reject any notion that violence against another human being is an acceptable way to resolve differences over any issue. We must always strive to engage in peaceful discussion. Our faith calls us to this. Our humanity demands it.

In the wake of this tragic event, our deepest concern is for the family of George Tiller. We ask the community to join us in prayer for them as they face the difficult days ahead. Our hearts ache with them. We also ask that the family's privacy be respected.

Members of Reformation Lutheran Church have been deeply affected by this tragedy. To address their needs, we are assembling a team of crisis intervention specialists.

In this time of uncertainty, we stand firm in the promises of Jesus Christ: forgiveness, hope, love, and new life, even from death. We pray for healing and peace to be restored. We offer our thanks for the many prayers of support from across the country. Your words of encouragement are a blessing to the people of Reformation Lutheran Church and Wichita.

http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/

Also, I was thinking about the irony in that Tiller was one of the few doctors who did late term abortions, but also seems to be a Christian.

If you read the news, he was going to leave the profession, but remained out of concern for those women who needed it, and would not have been able to have one in a legal , safe environment. He had heard what happened when abortion was illegal for these women, and decieded to be there for them.

[kayky]

It isn't wrong because the foetus is a full human being and entitled to the same legal rights, it's wrong because the relationship a good parent is supposed to have to her child is cut off by abortion, and often for reasons of convenience (which I find repugnant). I can understand if it's like the situation in Brazil a couple of months ago where the mother was probably going to die if she carried the foeti to term and the foeti would not have survived in any case, and I'm not about to take an absolutist line against abortion, but neither am I going to take up the position that abortion should be available as an absolute right (without consideration of other responsibilities).

I take issue with this. It is not the government's place to decide what a woman's responsibilities are regarding her own body. It doesn't matter who finds it "repugnant." The government does not have the right to force a woman to remain pregnant if she does not want to be pregnant. In the first trimester, I would say that this is an absolute right. Women are not incubators.