Clear declaration of Jesus as God

[Wootah]

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

[JehovahsWitness]

WHAT IS GODS GLORY?

EXODUS 33:18

Then he [Moses] said: “Please show me your glory.� 19 But he [YHWH] said: “... Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by"

The prophet Moses once requested to see God but was informed no man could see God and live. However God agreed that Moses see "his glory". It seems then that while Jehovah did not literally leave his abode in Heaven and pass by, He did let some of the "glory" presence be seen.

We get a clue as to what that might have appeared like because chapter 34 of the same book (Exodus) explains that after the experience Moses' own face "emitted rays" so it seems Moses face shone in some way. Notice Paul's wording, when refering to the incident he said explains "that the sons of Israel could not gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face" .
So it seems that when Exodus 33:24 refers to Moses seeing Jehovah's "back" or "back parts" (KJV) he saw the remnants of a manifestation of God's glory in the form of some kind of display of power and light (the prophet Elijah had a similar experience at Mount Horeb).

If a human cannot directly look at the sun, a light form that is many millions of miles away and a tiny flicker in the relation to the powerful light sources in the physical universe, we can only imagine what would happen to a human if he were subject the the full force of the CREATOR of the billions of galaxies in the universe (compare Psalms 36:9b). The Pulpit Commentary puts it this way: "After the Divine Presence had passed by, Moses was to be permitted to look out, and would see so much of the Divine glory as he would be able to bear"
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/33-23.htm

CONCLUSION While no human could survive physically being in close proximity to the all powerful Creator, this doesnt mean he cannot permit them to percieve a measure of his glorious power and might if it be His good pleasure.

JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

From another thread:

Because even being called god and savior, this would not mean that Christ is being called the Most Holy One of Israel (God Most High; JAH). Christ is the Son of God, as He consistently says.

Take the following for example:

"[Jesus] answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— then what about the One whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world? How then can you accuse me of blasphemy for stating that I am the Son of God?" John 10:34-36


And the reference to this is at Psalm 82:6,

"I have said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High."


Being the Son of the Most High (JAHVEH) does not make that person (even Christ) out to be JAH, Himself.

viewtopic.php?p=954932#954932





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[myth-one.com]

Titus 2:11-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Line 13. Anyone want to explain this away?

13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Jesus was the Word made flesh as a man.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

The Word was God:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The Word was God and Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Before becoming the flesh man Jesus Christ, there was the Word -- a God.

Then there was Jesus who became our Savior. He was a man.

So referring to our "great God and our Savior Jesus" is really referring to the same being in different forms.

That is not the same as referring to Jesus as God.

The Word was made flesh for the purpose of dying:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

God cannot die.

[Eloi]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

MythOne said:

So referring to our "great God and our Savior Jesus" is really referring to the same being in different forms.

But that is not what it says. When Jesus was called the Word in heaven before becoming a human, even if he had divine nature, he was not God, because that is what Bible says, that he was with God (John 1:1).

When Jesus became a human, he was STILL the same person he was, in a different nature. God was still there in heaven, and Jesus was not a "divine" person while human (John 1:18).

Changing nature does not mean changing persons. Jesus' brothers in heaven (the kings and priests with him) will share the same nature Jesus has now:

2 Pet. 1:2 May undeserved kindness and peace be increased to YOU by an accurate knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 forasmuch as his divine power has given us freely all the things that concern life and godly devotion, through the accurate knowledge of the one who called us through glory and virtue. 4 Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these YOU may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Rom. 8:28 Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

God has not brothers ... Jesus does, even if he is called again the Word:

Rev. 19:11 And I saw the heaven opened, and, look! a white horse. And the one seated upon it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. 12 His eyes are a fiery flame, and upon his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, 13 and he is arrayed with an outer garment sprinkled with blood, and the name he is called is The Word of God.

Nature can make "gods" or divine beings ... but nature does not make another GOD of gods:

Deut. 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe, 18 executing judgment for the fatherless boy and the widow and loving the alien resident so as to give him bread and a mantle.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to PinSeeker]
PinSeeker said:

we see this in Revelation 5:13, where both God and Jesus (the Lamb) are attributed the same "blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

WRONG...

In your opinion. Yeah, I know. That's too bad. But grace and peace to you anyway, Eloi.

[Elijah John]

Can we separate the glory of God from God?

From a trinitarian view, can one separate the Father from the Son or the Son from the Spirit, or the Spirit from the Father? If God is one and yet three, how can this type of God appear without the other two?

From this point of view, is it not meaningless to question which of the three will appear, or whose glory will appear, if they are one?

Can God divide itself into separate parts?


Tcg

If Trinitarianism is an existential reality, then apparently God did divide Himself into separate parts, at least when He incarnated into Jesus. But also after the resurrection and the ascension when Jesus took his seat at the "right hand of the Father" So yes, if the Trinity is a reality, God can.

Also, there is a diagram by Athanasius which illustrates the Trinity:

https://theblessedrebellion.files.wordp ... rinity.png

If this depiction is an accurate reflection of the Triune nature if God, then yes, God is at liberty for any of the Divine Persons to go on any given mission, even "separately".

[PinSeeker]

WHAT IS GODS GLORY?

EXODUS 33:18

Then he [Moses] said: “Please show me your glory.� 19 But he [YHWH] said: “... Here is a place near me. Station yourself on the rock. 22 When my glory is passing by"

The prophet Moses once requested to see God but was informed no man could see God and live. However God agreed that Moses see "his glory". It seems then that while Jehovah did not literally leave his abode in Heaven and pass by, He did let some of the "glory" presence be seen.

We get a clue as to what that might have appeared like because chapter 34 of the same book (Exodus) explains that after the experience Moses' own face "emitted rays" so it seems Moses face shone in some way. Notice Paul's wording, when refering to the incident he said explains "that the sons of Israel could not gaze at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face" .
So it seems that when Exodus 33:24 refers to Moses seeing Jehovah's "back" or "back parts" (KJV) he saw the remnants of a manifestation of God's glory in the form of some kind of display of power and light (the prophet Elijah had a similar experience at Mount Horeb).

If a human cannot directly look at the sun, a light form that is many millions of miles away and a tiny flicker in the relation to the powerful light sources in the physical universe, we can only imagine what would happen to a human if he were subject the the full force of the CREATOR of the billions of galaxies in the universe (compare Psalms 36:9b). The Pulpit Commentary puts it this way: "After the Divine Presence had passed by, Moses was to be permitted to look out, and would see so much of the Divine glory as he would be able to bear"
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/exodus/33-23.htm

CONCLUSION While no human could survive physically being in close proximity to the all powerful Creator, this doesn't mean he cannot permit them to perceive a measure of his glorious power and might if it be His good pleasure.

JW

I don't disagree with any of this. But God manifest Himself in the form of a man, so that we could all "behold His glory" which is is exactly what John 1:14 says:

• "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The Transfiguration of Jesus, which also took place "on a high mountain," where "His face shone like the sun and His garments became white as light" (Matthew 17:1-2) shows us this. Moses's face was shining only because it was reflecting God's glory, whereas Jesus was shown to be God's glory -- Shekinah Glory of God, the visible manifestation of God on earth, as I said before. Peter and James and John were all there with Him; they beheld His true glory, and they did not die. And we read this in Hebrews 1:1:

• "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He (God's Son, Jesus) is the radiance of His (God's) glory and the exact representation of His (God's) nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power." (parenthetical clarifications added)

So, what Moses writes in Exodus is right (of course), that no man could look on God's glory and live. This was absolutely true at that time, before God condescended to the physical -- not spiritual -- state of man in the form of Jesus. He "emptied Himself..." (He didn't become something different than He was in that He was still God, but that He took on the additional state of mortal man) "...taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7).

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1, emphasis added). To say the Word was "a god" is a corruption of God's Word, the very thing Jehovah's Witnesses accuse believers in the One True -- triune -- God of.

If anyone disagrees, that's unfortunate, but perfectly acceptable. We can agree to disagree and part gracefully. That's my proposition anyway. Grace and peace to you all.

[JehovahsWitness]

IS "GOD'S GLORY" GOD?

I don't disagree with any of this. But God manifest Himself in the form of a man...

Emphasis MINE

The scripture in question (TITUS 2:13) does not refer to God being manifest , it speaks abou us awaiting ...

TITUS 2:13

...the appearing of the glory of our great God ....

It is a question of THE GLORY of God appearing/being manifest, not God appearing.The glory is anything or anyone that reflects well on its "source", that which gives a praisworthy impression to others about someone or something. Note the following ...

1 CORINTHIANS 11:7 NASB

For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man

When Moses saw a magnificent display of divine light he wasnt seeing God but was seeing a physical representaton of Gods magificence. When a woman displays godly qualities and dignity those positive qualities elevate the husband she represents, she is thus his glory. That doesnt make her the husband anymore than man being Gods glory made him ( Adam ) Almighty God.

When Jesus comes in Gods name with the power and authority attributed to him by his superior YHWH, he becomes "the glory" of his Father. The woman is the glory of the man, man is the glory of God and Jesus is the glory of his Father. None but YHWH/Jehovah however can lay claim to being Almighty God!

JW








2 PETER 1:1 / TITUS 2:13

Does the language of 2 PETER 1:1 and ...TITUS 2:13 support the view that Jesus is Almighty God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 212#987212

If someone sees "God's glory" does that mean they have necessarity literally seen the person of God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 351#987351

Would the appearing of Jesus as Gods Glory mean he is equal to Almighty God the Father?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 446#987446

INDEX Trinity Proof Texts DEBUNKED
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com]

MythOne said:

So referring to our "great God and our Savior Jesus" is really referring to the same being in different forms.

But that is not what it says. When Jesus was called the Word in heaven before becoming a human, even if he had divine nature, he was not God, because that is what Bible says, that he was with God (John 1:1).

Here's the entire verse:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

When Jesus became a human, he was STILL the same person he was, in a different nature. God was still there in heaven, and Jesus was not a "divine" person while human (John 1:18).

====================== DISCLAIMER ======================

The Bible states that there are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (I Corinthians 15:44)

Each of the two body types defined in the Bible require a separate and distinct type of birth:

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3:6)

There are two different worlds -- the earthly and the heavenly.

Man can only understand things of the earthly world:

12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

While it is frustrating that I cannot understand the heavenly spiritual world, I suppose it's a little confronting that my ignorance of that world is expected.

It will become clear at the Second Coming when I am born again into the spiritual world:

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face: now I know in part; but then, shall I know even as also I am known. (I Corinthians 13:9-12)

======================== END OF DISCLAIMER ========================

Anyways, I agree that Jesus was a man who existed for about 33 years.

Jesus fulfilled His mission, and there is no longer any reason for His existence.

Through this 33 years, the Word still existed in parallel.

Don't know how that worked.

Jesus was resurrected from the tomb as a human and ascended into heaven or into the heavens.

But He did not enter heaven as a man -- as flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;... (I Corinthians 15:49-50)

Changing nature does not mean changing persons. Jesus' brothers in heaven (the kings and priests with him) will share the same nature Jesus has now:

If the definition of Jesus is the Word made flesh, then Jesus no longer exists.

But in actuality, mankind tends to use the names Word and Jesus interchangeable.

And it's difficult not to do so, although it's sometimes confusing.

The purpose for Jesus being made flesh has been fulfilled. He lived a sinless human life and is an heir to everlasting spiritual life under the Old Testament covenant.

Humans who believe in Jesus as their Savior become joint heirs with Christ:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ ... (Romans 8:16-17)

After the Second Coming, Jesus (the Word?) will no longer be the only Son of God! In fact, Jesus will then be our brother, as we also are now the sons and daughters of God; thus making us joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What a wonderful big brother we will have! However, that event is in our future if we are Christians. There are no Christians anywhere, dead or alive, who are presently born again Christians. You cannot be born again until Jesus returns!

If you believe in Jesus Christ your name is written in the book of life as an inheritor of eternal life under terms of the New Testament. Those terms are believing in Jesus as your Savior. Those who believe in Jesus will receive everlasting life as inheritors under the New Testament:

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. (Colossians 3:24)

[Eloi]

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times. 7 For the purpose of this witness I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—a teacher of nations in the matter of faith and truth.

Heb. 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, and forever.