Lets agree that Jesus was a historical figure who was put to death by the Romans for insurrection. That is claiming to be the Messiah, the King of the Jews.
The year was approximately 33 A.D.
Then there is the story that he was raised from the dead three days after his crucifixion.
Who witnessed that?
How much of the Jesus NT story really happened
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Eloi
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Post #21
I don't see any contradiction in the Bible, but I don't have time right now to talk about what you think is. If you think there is any contradiction, that would be enough prove for yourself that there was not any conspiracy among the writers ... and since all of them wrote about something the others did not, you can see no one of them copied from another one.
Have a good day.
Have a good day.
Post #22
RESPONSE: Of course, the many errors and contradictions the Gospels contain.Eloi wrote: So, coming back ... do have antibiblical non-theistic persons any conspiracy theory about the biblical writers? Do they have any valid reason for not trusting in what these good men wrote?
Did Jesus ride two animals (an ass and a colt) when entering Jerusalem? Is it true because Matthew said so, even when the other three gospel writers said one animal.
Why do you think Jesus rode two animals? Could Matthew have been in "inspired" error?
(Answer) He was. Can you figure out why? Reread his description of events and see if you can find the ("uninspired" blunder). And there are many we can discuss.
Post #23
I don't want you to loose sleep over it, so here's the answer. Matthew made one of his many blunders.
"Matthew 21 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
Chapter 21
The Entry into Jerusalem.[a] 1 When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her.[c] Untie them and bring them here to me. 3 And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once.� 4 [d]This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled:
5
“Say to daughter Zion,
‘Behold, your king comes to you,
meek and riding on an ass,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’
In the Old Testament prophecy, there is no "and." There is only one animal , not two. Do you want to venture a guess what the passage really saying?
So we know that Matthew was in error or the person how told him the story was. None of the other three witers made this "inspired" blunder.
"Matthew 21 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
Chapter 21
The Entry into Jerusalem.[a] 1 When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples, 2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her.[c] Untie them and bring them here to me. 3 And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once.� 4 [d]This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled:
5
“Say to daughter Zion,
‘Behold, your king comes to you,
meek and riding on an ass,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’
In the Old Testament prophecy, there is no "and." There is only one animal , not two. Do you want to venture a guess what the passage really saying?
So we know that Matthew was in error or the person how told him the story was. None of the other three witers made this "inspired" blunder.
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brianbbs67
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Post #24
According to Mathew, the 2 mary's who were bribed and the 12.
Mark' questionable ending says Magdalene and 2 un named disciples.
Then the 11. Hmm.
Luke says 2 Mary's, Joanna, Mary James mother, and other woman. And then the disciples, undefined in number.
John says Mary and then the disciples and a whole lot of followers.
Mark' questionable ending says Magdalene and 2 un named disciples.
Then the 11. Hmm.
Luke says 2 Mary's, Joanna, Mary James mother, and other woman. And then the disciples, undefined in number.
John says Mary and then the disciples and a whole lot of followers.
Post #25
RESPONSE: Let's take Paul falling off the horse and having a vision and have his eyes cured.Eloi wrote: Paul had direct contact with the apostles and other Christians ... It was a Christian who had the mission to cure his eyes and talk to him about the Christian beliefs even before he went some years by himself for later going back to Jerusalen.
Jesus died by 33 EC. 80 years later is not enough time for the experiences of Christians or stories of those who knew Jesus to be forgotten or distorted among the brothers of the different congregations that later formed. There were still Christians who were on the Pentecost of 33 CE alive until the end of the first century and Christianity was the center of their lives ... They not only preached Christ; they lived him in their own flesh and suffered the terrible consequences that accompanied this way of life. Let's be realistic ... let's locate ourselves at the time and stop speculating and getting ideas that have no valid reason ...
Did you ever wonder why in all of his epistles Paul himself never mentions it?
Paul wrote in the 50's. Acts was written in the 80's. So there was a lot more time to invent more miracles.
Matthew copied from Mark
Post #26RESPONSE: Have you noticed in Matt 16, that the first section is copied verbatim from Mark's Gospel and then Matthew added to it but forgetting that Andrew (Peter's brother) first told Peter that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus changed Simon's name to Peter before Peter became an apostle? See John's gospel.Eloi wrote: I don't see any contradiction in the Bible, but I don't have time right now to talk about what you think is. If you think there is any contradiction, that would be enough prove for yourself that there was not any conspiracy among the writers ... and since all of them wrote about something the others did not, you can see no one of them copied from another one.
Have a good day.
16Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.� 17And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Peter did not claim Jesus was divine.
Post #27Acts of the Apostles
2You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.j 23This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.k 24 But God raised him up
Note;
God, not Jesus, worked the miracles.
Jesus did not "rise from the dead" He was raised from the dead by God as other men had been.
2You who are Israelites, hear these words. Jesus the Nazorean was a man commended to you by God with mighty deeds, wonders, and signs, which God worked through him in your midst, as you yourselves know.j 23This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.k 24 But God raised him up
Note;
God, not Jesus, worked the miracles.
Jesus did not "rise from the dead" He was raised from the dead by God as other men had been.
Why did God want Jesus to be killed?
Post #28God hates human sacrifice. The pagan nations that surrounded the Israelites practiced human sacrifice as part of the worship of false gods. God declared that such “worship� was detestable to Him and that He hates it (Deuteronomy 12:31)
But evidently Jesus' s execution had to be explained away.
But evidently Jesus' s execution had to be explained away.
Still more contradiction in scripture: Paul
Post #29Paul 1 Thes 4
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
OR
Paul 2 Thes 2
We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,� or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand.
How can these both be “God breathed� and inerrant?
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
OR
Paul 2 Thes 2
We ask you, brothers, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling with him, 2 not to be shaken out of your minds suddenly, or to be alarmed either by a “spirit,� or by an oral statement, or by a letter allegedly from us to the effect that the day of the Lord is at hand.
How can these both be “God breathed� and inerrant?
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Eloi
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Post #30
[Replying to brianbbs67]
This is the most probable order of events since the earthquake in the tomb and the stone runs, until the women warn the apostles (notice that there are two different lines in the events: what Mary Magdalene does first, and what do the other women who had gone to the grave):
1) A great earth tremor takes place, an angel appears who rolls the stone; the tomb guards panic and faint (Matt. 28: 2-4). The guards recover and go to the city to announce the events to the Jewish priests who invent a conspiracy ... (Matt. 28: 11,13,14)
2) Women arrive at the grave and the guards are not there. The stone is run (Matt. 24: 2) and inside it seems empty. Mary Magdalene runs away to tell Peter and John that the tomb is empty. (John 20: 2)
3) The other two women remain shocked there and see two angels (Luke 24: 4); They are struck by the angel sitting inside (Mark 16: 5). The angels speak with them and send them to take the news to the disciples (Matt. 28: 5,7; Luke 24: 5-7). They run to tell them (Matt. 28: 8).
4) Mary Magdalene had taken another path and has notified Peter and John. (John 20: 2). Peter and John leave for the grave; John arrives the first, sees the bandages from the outside but does not enter. Then comes Peter who does come in and see the cloth. Then John enters and realizes that everything Mary Magdalene said is true. But they still don't know what happened to the body. Bewildered they return home, while Mary Magdalene is back to the grave.
5) The other women had already taken another path and had crossed paths with the guards who were going to give the news to the priests. But they have not yet reached where the disciples are when Jesus appears to them, speaks with them, and sends a message to the disciples to go to Galilee and they will be able to see him there (Matt. 28: 9,10).
6) Mary Magdalene is back in the grave and begins to cry because she still does not know what happened to the body. Look inside and see the two angels from before and explain why she is crying. When she turns around she sees a man and confusing him with a gardener, she asks if he has anything to do with the transfer of the body, but that man turns out to be Jesus, who sends her to see the disciples with another message (John 20: 13-17).
7) Mary Magdalene already knows what has happened and runs the other way to see all the disciples together, to whom the other women have given already the news. She also gives them the announcement, but the disciples are not convinced of what women have said (John 20:18; Luke 24:11).
Seen in this harmonized way, what seemed contradictions are understood as details that an evangelist gave that another did not give. The fact that events have to be harmonized to understand the facts, demonstrates that they did not agree to invent any history, and that each of them was writing from their own collection or memory of the facts. That denies the alleged collusion they have been accused of, about inventing a story.
PD: I used Google Translate ...
This is the most probable order of events since the earthquake in the tomb and the stone runs, until the women warn the apostles (notice that there are two different lines in the events: what Mary Magdalene does first, and what do the other women who had gone to the grave):
1) A great earth tremor takes place, an angel appears who rolls the stone; the tomb guards panic and faint (Matt. 28: 2-4). The guards recover and go to the city to announce the events to the Jewish priests who invent a conspiracy ... (Matt. 28: 11,13,14)
2) Women arrive at the grave and the guards are not there. The stone is run (Matt. 24: 2) and inside it seems empty. Mary Magdalene runs away to tell Peter and John that the tomb is empty. (John 20: 2)
3) The other two women remain shocked there and see two angels (Luke 24: 4); They are struck by the angel sitting inside (Mark 16: 5). The angels speak with them and send them to take the news to the disciples (Matt. 28: 5,7; Luke 24: 5-7). They run to tell them (Matt. 28: 8).
4) Mary Magdalene had taken another path and has notified Peter and John. (John 20: 2). Peter and John leave for the grave; John arrives the first, sees the bandages from the outside but does not enter. Then comes Peter who does come in and see the cloth. Then John enters and realizes that everything Mary Magdalene said is true. But they still don't know what happened to the body. Bewildered they return home, while Mary Magdalene is back to the grave.
5) The other women had already taken another path and had crossed paths with the guards who were going to give the news to the priests. But they have not yet reached where the disciples are when Jesus appears to them, speaks with them, and sends a message to the disciples to go to Galilee and they will be able to see him there (Matt. 28: 9,10).
6) Mary Magdalene is back in the grave and begins to cry because she still does not know what happened to the body. Look inside and see the two angels from before and explain why she is crying. When she turns around she sees a man and confusing him with a gardener, she asks if he has anything to do with the transfer of the body, but that man turns out to be Jesus, who sends her to see the disciples with another message (John 20: 13-17).
7) Mary Magdalene already knows what has happened and runs the other way to see all the disciples together, to whom the other women have given already the news. She also gives them the announcement, but the disciples are not convinced of what women have said (John 20:18; Luke 24:11).
Seen in this harmonized way, what seemed contradictions are understood as details that an evangelist gave that another did not give. The fact that events have to be harmonized to understand the facts, demonstrates that they did not agree to invent any history, and that each of them was writing from their own collection or memory of the facts. That denies the alleged collusion they have been accused of, about inventing a story.
PD: I used Google Translate ...
