My Lord and my God - Shema Trinity

[Wootah]

Thomas says, "My Lord and my God."

https://biblehub.com/text/john/20-28.htm

What did he mean to claim about Jesus?

[2timothy316]

Being amazed at God's accomplishments is not taking His name up in a worthless way.

A mere exclamation

You say mere, the Bible says it was not.

Give an example from the Bible where a person was stone for saying 'Oh God'. I have given you Biblical examples of REAL abuses of God's name in the Bible. I have even given examples of righteous men saying 'O Jehovah' in an emotional outburst. yet they live. Give scriptures to show where someone was stoned for the reason you claim. If you can't then you have no Biblically sound argument. You can explain your opinion but until you can show a Bible example, it's just an opinion that carries no authority.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 38 by PinSeeker]

"Thou shalt not take the name of Jehovah [YHWH] thy God in vain; for Jehovah [YHWH] will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain." - ASV.

But, PS, God's name is YHWH (Yahweh, Jehovah, Yehowah), not ADN (Lord)!

Saying 'my God and my Lord' has nothing to do with God's name! The expression here has no further meaning given and is intended as either an exclamation or a praise or promise to God as already stated.

[PinSeeker]

You say mere, the Bible says it was not.

I respect your opinion, but that's not correct. My allegation is that you say (inadvertently, at least) that Thomas's profession is somehow less than it is, and even a violation of the third Commandment, and the Bible clearly says it was not.

Give an example from the Bible where a person was stone for saying 'Oh God'.

As I said there is none, because in every instance -- including Thomas's -- God is being professed and praised directly, thereby not violating the third Commandment.

I have given you Biblical examples of REAL abuses of God's name in the Bible.

Agreed. Well, Leviticus 24 is, and the son of the Israelite woman was put to death as a result. Leviticus 19 is a commandment from God through Moses not to do it. But yeah, no argument here...

I have even given examples of righteous men saying 'O Jehovah' in an emotional outburst. yet they live.

The only real example you gave, as I recall, was Psalm 3:7, and there, David is addressing the Lord directly in prayer. It surely is a very emotional plea he is making; David is pouring out his heart to Jehovah God. But it's certainly not irreverent in any way; in fact just the opposite. The same is true of what Thomas says and how he says it in John 20:28. Thus, David and Thomas lived... and still do, I'm sure.

Give scriptures to show where someone was stoned for the reason you claim. If you can't then you have no Biblically sound argument.

Sigh. See above.

You can explain your opinion but until you can show a Bible example, it's just an opinion that carries no authority.

Well I agree that God is the only authority here. I'm not telling you have to take my word for it, but you should... But because it's God's Word, not mine... As I said, though, there are no Bible examples, because people knew not to do it. This is the point.

Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Saying 'my God and my Lord' has nothing to do with God's name! The expression here has no further meaning given and is intended as either an exclamation or a praise or promise to God as already stated.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Using the example that 2timothy316 himself used (Leviticus 24), we only know that the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed; we don't have any kind of quote from him, so we do not know exactly HOW he did it. I say you can blaspheme the Name of God in many different ways, by using the holy name of God in any way other than with fear and reverence or by not rightly confessing him, calling upon him, or praising him in all our words and works. In this way, you and I are really guilty of violating God's third Commandment many times every single day. And if we don't repent and ask forgiveness, we will indeed die (I speak of eternal death, which is the second death, not temporal death, which is the first).

In short, you don't have to actually say God's Name to blaspheme it... much the same way that we don't have to actually have had sexual intercourse with someone other than our spouse to have actually committed adultery ("...but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart...", Jesus says).

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 36 by Elijah John]

Hi EJ

I am learning hebrew and greek through this process. I use biblegateway to look at different translations and bible hub to look at the hebrew or greek. Of course I dont look at original texts and rely on these.

[2timothy316]

I have even given examples of righteous men saying 'O Jehovah' in an emotional outburst. yet they live.

The only real example you gave, as I recall, was Psalm 3:7, and there, David is addressing the Lord directly in prayer. It surely is a very emotional plea he is making; David is pouring out his heart to Jehovah God. But it's certainly not irreverent in any way; in fact just the opposite. The same is true of what Thomas says and how he says it in John 20:28. Thus, David and Thomas lived... and still do, I'm sure.

That is not what I asked for and you know it. I asked for a scripture where a person was stoned to death because they said Oh God in the way you say is incorrect. I can not find anywhere in the Bible is a person ever killed for saying My God, Oh God, My Lord, Oh Lord. Whether they said it to another angel or to Jehovah Himself. You have not proven that anyone has been killed or even a sin for what you call 'a mere exclamation'. Until you come up with your scripture that 'A mere exclamation' is a sin your opinion has no authority. We has humans do not get to judge what is 'mere'. I have given scriptures where people were not considered sinning, you must show scriptures where they did sin that fit your 'mere' dogma.

[2timothy316]

Saying 'my God and my Lord' has nothing to do with God's name! The expression here has no further meaning given and is intended as either an exclamation or a praise or promise to God as already stated.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Using the example that 2timothy316 himself used (Leviticus 24), we only know that the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed; we don't have any kind of quote from him, so we do not know exactly HOW he did it.

That doesn't give us license to makeup whatever we want though. We have to look to the Bible for examples.

Here is another Bible example is when a person bring reproach on God's name. Numbers chapter 11 is a good example of this. The Hebrews were complaining or murmuring about the care Jehovah was giving them implying that the hand of Jehovah was too short to give them what they need. Calling on Jehovah in the spirit of complaint concerning His gifts is an abuse of using His name. “Who will give us meat to eat? How fondly we remember the fish that we used to eat without cost in Egypt, also the cucumbers, the watermelons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic! But now we are withering away. We see nothing at all except this manna.�

They had the guts to say, "we are withering away" even while God was giving them food to eat miraculously out of nowhere. What an insult!!

Do you see how I'm not making up by myself what is considered breaking the Law concerning God's name? I don't speculate. Everyone should be careful about speculation. I find proof from the Bible, which has the authority to speak for God. Neither my opinion or yours has that authority. To back your 'a mere exclamation' dogma as a sin you're going to have to prove from the Bible for me to believe it. Remember, your whole argument as to why Thomas was calling Jesus God is because if he wasn't then he was sinning from 'a mere exclamation'. You have not been able to use the Bible to prove that making 'a mere exclamation' is a sin.

[PinSeeker]

Saying 'my God and my Lord' has nothing to do with God's name! The expression here has no further meaning given and is intended as either an exclamation or a praise or promise to God as already stated.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Using the example that 2timothy316 himself used (Leviticus 24), we only know that the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed; we don't have any kind of quote from him, so we do not know exactly HOW he did it.

That doesn't give us license to makeup whatever we want though. We have to look to the Bible for examples.

Here is another Bible example is when a person bring reproach on God's name. Numbers chapter 11 is a good example of this. The Hebrews were complaining or murmuring about the care Jehovah was giving them implying that the hand of Jehovah was too short to give them what they need. Calling on Jehovah in the spirit of complaint concerning His gifts is an abuse of using His name. “Who will give us meat to eat? How fondly we remember the fish that we used to eat without cost in Egypt, also the cucumbers, the watermelons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic! But now we are withering away. We see nothing at all except this manna.�

They had the guts to say, "we are withering away" even while God was giving them food to eat miraculously out of nowhere. What an insult!!

Do you see how I'm not making up by myself what is considered breaking the Law concerning God's name? I don't speculate. Everyone should be careful about speculation. I find proof from the Bible, which has the authority to speak for God. Neither my opinion or yours has that authority. To back your 'a mere exclamation' dogma as a sin you're going to have to prove from the Bible for me to believe it.

Calling on Jehovah in the spirit of complaint concerning His gifts is an abuse of using His name.

Wholeheartedly agree. Nothing I have said would dispute that one iota.

Do you see how I'm not making up by myself what is considered breaking the Law concerning God's name?

Sure. And neither am I.

To back your 'a mere exclamation' dogma as a sin you're going to have to prove from the Bible for me to believe it.

The very example you use here (Numbers 11) is a great one; for at least two reasons:

• 1. The Israelites never actually use God's Name, which tells us that blaspheming the Name of God can entail much more than just literally using His Name (which I know is what you are saying here, too). They grumble against God, questioning Him and His faithfulness and and even the sufficiency of the manna itself, which is representative of Jesus, the true bread of heaven (John 6:32).
  
  2. If what Thomas says in John 20:28 were a mere exclamation, it would be the same as what the Israelites are doing in Numbers 11 in that he would be blaspheming God's Name in the respect that he would be referring to God in some way other than rightly confessing him, calling upon him, or praising him in all our words and works.

Thank you for proving my point.

[2timothy316]

Saying 'my God and my Lord' has nothing to do with God's name! The expression here has no further meaning given and is intended as either an exclamation or a praise or promise to God as already stated.

Disagree wholeheartedly. Using the example that 2timothy316 himself used (Leviticus 24), we only know that the son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed; we don't have any kind of quote from him, so we do not know exactly HOW he did it.

That doesn't give us license to makeup whatever we want though. We have to look to the Bible for examples.

Here is another Bible example is when a person bring reproach on God's name. Numbers chapter 11 is a good example of this. The Hebrews were complaining or murmuring about the care Jehovah was giving them implying that the hand of Jehovah was too short to give them what they need. Calling on Jehovah in the spirit of complaint concerning His gifts is an abuse of using His name. “Who will give us meat to eat? How fondly we remember the fish that we used to eat without cost in Egypt, also the cucumbers, the watermelons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic! But now we are withering away. We see nothing at all except this manna.�

They had the guts to say, "we are withering away" even while God was giving them food to eat miraculously out of nowhere. What an insult!!

Do you see how I'm not making up by myself what is considered breaking the Law concerning God's name? I don't speculate. Everyone should be careful about speculation. I find proof from the Bible, which has the authority to speak for God. Neither my opinion or yours has that authority. To back your 'a mere exclamation' dogma as a sin you're going to have to prove from the Bible for me to believe it.

Calling on Jehovah in the spirit of complaint concerning His gifts is an abuse of using His name.

Wholeheartedly agree. Nothing I have said would dispute that one iota.

Do you see how I'm not making up by myself what is considered breaking the Law concerning God's name?

Sure. And neither am I.

To back your 'a mere exclamation' dogma as a sin you're going to have to prove from the Bible for me to believe it.

The very example you use here (Numbers 11) is a great one; for at least two reasons:

• 1. The Israelites never actually use God's Name, which tells us that blaspheming the Name of God can entail much more than just literally using His Name (which I know is what you are saying here, too). They grumble against God, questioning Him and His faithfulness and and even the sufficiency of the manna itself, which is representative of Jesus, the true bread of heaven (John 6:32).
  
  2. If what Thomas says in John 20:28 were a mere exclamation, it would be the same as what the Israelites are doing in Numbers 11 in that he would be blaspheming God's Name in the respect that he would be referring to God in some way other than rightly confessing him, calling upon him, or praising him in all our words and works.

Thank you for proving my point.

No, numbers 11 is not the same as the 'a mere exclamation' dogma you're unsuccessfully trying to prove. Try again. What the Hebrews did and what you're trying to say Thomas did as 'a mere exclamation' is not even close. Can you not twist scriptures I present with your eisegesis interpretation or speculation please? Thomas was not murmuring against God. You're trying to prove that 'a mere exclamation' is a sin and give an example. You cannot try to make murmuring or any of my examples as proof 'a mere exclamation' is a sin. Am I not making myself clear?

For the last time, please give us a scripture of a person making 'a mere exclamation' and that person being called a sinner. If you don't then you have nothing but opinion and no authority to say 'a mere exclamation' is a sin.

[PinSeeker]

No, numbers 11 is not the same as the 'a mere exclamation' dogma you're unsuccessfully trying to prove.

Not literally, no. But it's in the same category of referring to God in some way other than rightly confessing him, calling upon him, or praising him in words and/or deed.

Try again.

No need.

What the Hebrews did and what you're trying to say Thomas did as 'a mere exclamation' is not even close.

It absolutely is; it's the same thing, in the sense that I'm saying here. See below.

Can you not twist scriptures I present please with your eisegesis interpretation please.

I'm not; far be it from me to do so, as that would be a blaspheming of God's holy Name and a violation of Commandment number three.

Thomas was not murmuring against God.

I never said he was. But he was using God's name in an empty way, not rightly confessing him, calling upon him, or praising him in word and/or deed. Murmuring against God, which the Israelites did in Numbers 11 is but one way to do that. An empty exclamation on the order of swearing or cursing, which Thomas did not do but you inadvertently accuse him of in John 20:28, is another. In this way, were Thomas actually doing what Jehovah's Witnesses would have us believe, he would be doing the same thing as the Israelites did in Numbers 11.

Grace and peace to you, 2timothy316.