Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

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ENIGMA
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Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #1

Post by ENIGMA »

I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.

Eyewitness Account 1:
I was walking back to my dorm at around 8 at night when I saw a white van crash into a parked red car at the corner of North Avenue and Techwood. The van was going at least 30 miles per hour when it crashed into the car, hitting the red car side on, severely damaging the left side of the red car and moving in onto the sidewalk. After the collision, the white van, which had suffered some damage to its front bumper, backed up and zoomed off. I couldn't catch the license plate.
In the above example, the account was written in the first person as indicated by what I would term the "eyewitness I", which is an "I" that unambiguously refers to the narrarator or the eyewitness. To my knowledge, the only Gospel in which the "eyewitness I" is used is in Luke, and even then it is used to indicate that Luke is not himself an eyewitness but is supposedly compiling testimony from those who are. Is there any other use of the "eyewitness I"?

Of course, one can have an eyewitness account without the "eyewitness I".

Eyewitness Account 2:
A white van crashed into a parked red car at the corner of North Avenue and Techwood. The van was going at least 30 miles per hour when it crashed into the car, hitting the red car side on, severely damaging the left side of the red car and moving in onto the sidewalk. After the collision, the white van, which had suffered some damage to its front bumper, backed up and zoomed off. The license plate number was not readily visible.
This is written in the third-person limited form, which is where events are expressed without the use of an "eyewitness I", but is written from one and only one point of view. In other words, the text takes no dramatic jumps in perspective beyond that which a single eyewitness could plausibly take. A counter example:

Not an Eyewitness Account:
While he was driving a couple buddies home in his white van, Bob was talking on his cell phone to his wife, Mary. "Look, I'm sorry, but the client meeting ran late and...", Bob said.
Mary sighed and replied, "Fine, I'll get something around for you to eat when you get here.".
Bob said "Thanks, I'll be home soo..." but was interrupted when he crashed his white van into a red car he had overlooked in his conversation.

"Bob? Bob?", said Mary, with no response. "Guess the signal got lost somewhere".

"Darn cell phone's smashed... Are y'all all right back there?", asked Bob.
"I'm fine but Matt doesn't look too good.", said Phil.
"Crap, there's a hospital around here, we'd better get him there quick!", said Bob, rushing away from the wreckage of the red car toward the hospital.
The above obviously isn't an eyewitness account. It may be a narrative of events based on multiple eyewitness accounts (possibly a combination of Phil and Mary, or Matt and Mary, or some other unspecified combination), but it cannot be an eyewitness account because no single eyewitness could have plausibly seen all of the above events.

So, overall the main questions of contention for the thread are:

1) Are there any other uses of the "eyewitness I" in the Gospels? If so, what are they and what do they indicate about the eyewitness/narrator?

2) Where there isn't an "eyewitness I", can the events in any given individual book of the Gospels be plausibly observed by a single eyewitness (making it a possible eyewitness account) or not (making it, at best, a narrative based on several unspecified eyewitness accounts)?
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Post #11

Post by palmera »

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AB

Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #12

Post by AB »

ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.

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Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #13

Post by Goat »

AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.

Biker

Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #14

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.
I would like proof of this speculation please.

Biker

Biker

Post #15

Post by Biker »

TGillings wrote:
Antigone wrote:TGillings:I am with you on that, brother!! If we let ancient texts dictate our lives we will never move forward into the future. Just look at all the strife around us caused by religion and ancient texts and what people do with them...

A major dogma in christianity (and other religions) is the infallibilty of their sacred texts. Christians believe the gospels were written by eye witnesses and that it was divinely inspired and is NOT wrong and can never be wrong. This idea can be dangerous (and HAS been dangerous). We see this playing out in the middle east right now, only this time its muslims fighting with each other and with other religions. Though it started out as a war/conflict over land, the ideas in both the Q'ran AND the jewish sacred text helped to fuel it and drive it to were it is today. That, coupled with the fundamentalist Christians who think the Jews in Israel should control Jerusalem and rebiuld the temple so the lord Jesus Christ can return to earth and end all life as we know it, is a catalyst for such a big disaster that I have nightmares about WWIII when I sleep...
All because some religions hold tight to the dogma surrounding how their texts came to be!!!

There is nothing so beautiful, and nothing so dangerous, as religous beliefs!! People need to decide which one (beauty or danger) they want their beliefs to be!! Do they want to be a catalyst for peace, joy and change?? or a catalyst for war, sadness, and destruction?? To change they need to take an honest exploration of the bible, Q'ran, and (sorry, I cannot remember for the life of me what the Jewish call their sacred text...). They need to take it and read it in the context, society, and time period it was written, and read ALL that it says. Then they need to decide if they want to live in peace and harmony with others and with the earth, or if they want to continue to destroy or help create the dogmatic atmosphere that helps others to destroy.
All thats needed is an open mind, honesty, and a thirst for knowledge and study.

(Please note, I do not mean ALL Christians, Muslims, and Jewish people are bringing havoc, if you misunderstood please know that I am talking about these things in general. And even if YOU aren't personally doing harmful things you have to ask yourself if you are helping to create the dogmatic and/or repressive atmosphere that anable others to do harm...or if you are trying to stop that kind of atmosphere and bring in the atmosphere of peace and change!)
Do you know what, if I thought I would receive an answer I'd love to write to all the Heads of Religious organisations and ask them why they do not actually practice what they preach. Why is it that they do not accept their responsibility for ensuring their congregation leaves other religious people alone to worship as they wish, stop trying to convert them and stop claiming theirs is the only true church.

I think all Religious Heads should come together, and for the sake of all humanity, make a statement endorsing Peace and tolerance for all mankind. Wouldn't that be something? Could you imagine the impact that would have? It actually blows my mind even thinking about it...right, that's it I'm going back into my little dark room with the nice soft walls....
I think that you are wrongly characterizing Christianity. I think Christianity is promoting peace and good will towards men on the whole. I am a Christian and involved in good things and my Christian brothers and sisters are also. Also I was not aware the Christian Bible was a catalyst for war and destruction and sadness? I see Christianity as the biggest influence for good in the world today on a worldwide scale unequaled by any other group be it religious or other wise. I see Christianity growing stronger, bigger, better, with more reach than ever before. I see Christianity promoting peace and understanding for all mankind.

Biker

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Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #16

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.
I would like proof of this speculation please.

Biker
This has been given to you before. You have rejected the evidence, or have made excuses up to ignore it. I don't feel like repeating myself ad infinitum because you do not have the desire to understand.

Biker

Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #17

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.
I would like proof of this speculation please.

Biker
This has been given to you before. You have rejected the evidence, or have made excuses up to ignore it. I don't feel like repeating myself ad infinitum because you do not have the desire to understand.
All you are doing is running up your post numbers. You don't have anything to say of substance.You don't have proof. Matthew was written by Matthew the disciple of the Lord and John was written by the disciple John the disciple of the Lord.Very early church tradition states that Mark, the son of Mary of Jerusalem (Acts 12:12), wrote this Gospel.Many scholars believe that Mark was the young man described in Mark 14:51,52. So he would have been an eyewitness also. Luke traveled with Paul and was the "beloved physician" (Col. 4:14). Luke had access to the contemporaries of Jesus Christ.They all were either eyewitnesses or as in Lukes case got it first hand.
You reject the most documented collection of writings (the Bible) than ANY writing from antiquity. Not only the most manuscripts by far over 5,700, but the closest to the originals by far, and the most accurate by far, over 99.5% accuracy to the original (autographs).
You are in denial Goat.

Biker

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Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #18

Post by Goat »

Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.
I would like proof of this speculation please.

Biker
This has been given to you before. You have rejected the evidence, or have made excuses up to ignore it. I don't feel like repeating myself ad infinitum because you do not have the desire to understand.
All you are doing is running up your post numbers. You don't have anything to say of substance.You don't have proof. Matthew was written by Matthew the disciple of the Lord and John was written by the disciple John the disciple of the Lord.Very early church tradition states that Mark, the son of Mary of Jerusalem (Acts 12:12), wrote this Gospel.Many scholars believe that Mark was the young man described in Mark 14:51,52. So he would have been an eyewitness also. Luke traveled with Paul and was the "beloved physician" (Col. 4:14). Luke had access to the contemporaries of Jesus Christ.They all were either eyewitnesses or as in Lukes case got it first hand.
You reject the most documented collection of writings (the Bible) than ANY writing from antiquity. Not only the most manuscripts by far over 5,700, but the closest to the originals by far, and the most accurate by far, over 99.5% accuracy to the original (autographs).
You are in denial Goat.

Biker
Where in Matthew does it identify who wrote it?

Where in John does it identify WHICH john wrote it?

As for the 'Most documented colleciton of writings'.. show me any evidence that dates before 100 C.E. that the gospels even existed before then.

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Post #19

Post by Confused »

I am currently reading "Misquoting Jesus: The story behind who changed the bible and why" by Bart D Ehrman. Now before you get the wrong idea, he is Christian and his speciality is in the study of the NT. From what I have read so far, he doesn't claim it was a conspiracy or anything. He points to simple facts:
1) We don't have the originals for any of the NT. He refers to them as autographs. We only have copies in which scholars have interjected words that word missing here and there because of the natrual process of aging, which has left most copies fragmented.

2) In his studies, he has become an expert in languages: English (his primary), latin, greek, and hebrew among a few. He states that when the NT is read in its original language, it doesn't translate into what the English version claims. He also says that when taking in its original language and in the context of the time period during which it was written, the english version is not accurate at all.

I haven't finished the book yet. I only put it in here because there appears to be a major discrepancy in what was actually written, and what we now read.
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What we do for others and the world remains
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Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

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Biker

Re: Are the Gospels eyewitness accounts?

Post #20

Post by Biker »

goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
Biker wrote:
goat wrote:
AB wrote:
ENIGMA wrote:I started this thread in Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma because one can answer this question either way whether or not one considers the events stated in the Gospels to have actually occurred. If a moderator after reading the OP thinks this would be better suited for Apologetics, then they can feel free to move it there.

Anyway:

The question posed is whether the writing styles of the Gospels are consistent with that of an eyewitness account. To illustrate what I am getting at, let me show a few (fictional, but plausible) eyewitness accounts on another topic.
Well, to start out, I think it is important to know only 2 of the 4 gospel writers walked with Jesus and were eye witnesses. Those being Matthew and John. Mark wrote for Peter, and Luke for Paul(who didn't walk with Jesus, but was spiritually touched by Jesus). Regarding writing styles, I think the more important question is who the intended audience was, not so much the account. The account is in no question. All 4 gospels concur on the account of Jesus. However, the style of writing may differ. For example, Matthew was writing to the Jews, while Luke's primary audience were the gentiles. Given this, of course the writing styles will differ.
There is no evidence the Gospel of Matthew was written by the apostle Matthew, and the Gospel of John was not written by the apostle John.
I would like proof of this speculation please.

Biker
This has been given to you before. You have rejected the evidence, or have made excuses up to ignore it. I don't feel like repeating myself ad infinitum because you do not have the desire to understand.
All you are doing is running up your post numbers. You don't have anything to say of substance.You don't have proof. Matthew was written by Matthew the disciple of the Lord and John was written by the disciple John the disciple of the Lord.Very early church tradition states that Mark, the son of Mary of Jerusalem (Acts 12:12), wrote this Gospel.Many scholars believe that Mark was the young man described in Mark 14:51,52. So he would have been an eyewitness also. Luke traveled with Paul and was the "beloved physician" (Col. 4:14). Luke had access to the contemporaries of Jesus Christ.They all were either eyewitnesses or as in Lukes case got it first hand.
You reject the most documented collection of writings (the Bible) than ANY writing from antiquity. Not only the most manuscripts by far over 5,700, but the closest to the originals by far, and the most accurate by far, over 99.5% accuracy to the original (autographs).
You are in denial Goat.

Biker
Where in Matthew does it identify who wrote it?

Where in John does it identify WHICH john wrote it?

As for the 'Most documented colleciton of writings'.. show me any evidence that dates before 100 C.E. that the gospels even existed before then.
These are questions NOT evidence.

Biker

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