Is Calvinism Reasonable?

[Dimmesdale]

Calvinism teaches that there is no action on our part that causes God to choose us as his children and be saved. That we are in a sense "born again" not through our will, but based upon God's decree.

Is this reasonable? In other words, is it realistic to think this way, when most people have not had a "born again" experience where they were spiritually resurrected "of God" and not "of their own free will." Does this mean most people are going to Hell?

The bottom line is, most people believe and feel that they have free will, that they are good people trying to be as good as they can. That is the pat answer I've typically heard. But Calvinism totally reverses this and says "there is nothing in me that is good, only Christ working in me." And so on.

I also have a lot of conflicting ideas regarding salvation from a Calvinistic p.o.v. For instance, some people say you can't ascertain whether a certain person is going to hell because "you can't know their hearts." But other Christians (or Calvinisits) say "you will know them by their fruit" and that it is indeed Biblical to judge and confront people.

What I'm saying is, there just doesn't seem to be a clear demarcation between "saved" and "unsaved" and that this runs counter to the human experience in general. Anyone resonate with this at all? Thanks.

[brianbbs67]

I would say, be as concerned with your own soul and your family and friends. God does as He wills. Be not a judge for as a Judge you are not doing but Judging. You will know people by their fruit. A good tree does not produce bad fruit. There are rules God gave mankind. There is forgiveness for breaking those rules thru Christ. Habitual breaking or intentional breaking after forgiveness is what we are to avoid. Work on yourself first, before worring about whether others are damned.

[jgh7]

I believe there's a strange mix between personal responsibility (free-will) and predestination. It remains a mystery, but there are verses to support both being in action.

-----
From this quote (and tons of others), I at least gather that God knows the future and predestines many, if not all things.

Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
-----

But then there are other quotes like this one, which hold us accountable:

Matthew 23:37
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
-----

So now it appears that Jesus will not gather those who are not willing. This implies that there is some free-will choice or responsibility on our part to be willing. So you can see that there is a strange mix between predestination and free will, God's actions and our choice. I respect Calvinists for their beliefs in predestination based off scripture, but I don't think it's the entire story. It is still a mystery to me, as many things are.

As far as heaven and hell goes. It's not for me to judge. I believe you are saved by faith, but it's not my place to say who will or will not eventually believe, who will go to Heaven or who will go to Hell. Paul warns against thinking about this:

Romans 10:6-10
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ � (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ � (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart� (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

[PinSeeker]

I'll say from the outset that I am a Calvinist (you can see that from my Usergroups to the left), and a 5-point one at that (there are folks who would call themselves 4-point Calvinists -- they don't buy into the idea of Limited Atonement)

That being said, yes, for sure, the coexistence of God's perfect sovereignty over all His Creation and our free will is a mystery, and anyone who tells you they understand it perfectly is really fooling themselves. It's analogous to the Triune God, how one God can exist in three distinct persons, in that respect; it cannot be fully understood in this life. However, both concepts can be accepted, even intellectually, as true and intensely rational.

Calvinists hold faithfully to the Westminster Confession of Faith, which, while not the Bible and thus not God's Word, they believe to be a faithful summary of God's Word broken out into specific chapters by topic and helpful in understanding Scripture and the systematic theology it contains. Chapter nine deals specifically with man's free will. It reads as follows (with Scripture proofs/references):

Chapter 9
Of Free Will

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

• * James 1:13–14. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
  
  * Deuteronomy. 30:19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.
  
  * Isaiah. 7:11–12. Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.
  
  * Matthew 17:12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. John 5:40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
  
  * James 4:7. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God...

• * Ecclesiastes 7:29. Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
  
  * Genesis 1:26, 31. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
  
  * Colossians 3:10. And [ye] have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him.

... but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

• * Genesis 2:16–17. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
  
  * Genesis 3:6, 17. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.… And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation...

• * Romans 8:7–8. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not
  subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
  
  * John 6:44, 65. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.… And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
  
  * John 15:5. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
  
  * Romans 5:5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

... so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good...

• * Romans 3:9–10, 12, 23. What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.… They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.… For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

...and dead in sin...

• * Ephesians 2:1, 5. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.… Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) …
  
  * Colossians 2:13. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

...is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

• * John 6:44, 65. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.… And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
  
  * John 3:3, 5–6. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God... Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  
  * 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  
  * Titus 3:3–5. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

4. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin...

• * Colossians. 1:13. ...who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.
  
  * John 8:34, 36. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.… If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
  
  * Romans 6:6–7. ...knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

... and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good...

• * Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
  
  * Romans 6:14, 17–19, 22. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ...But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ...But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

...yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

• * Galatians 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
  
  * Romans 7:14–25. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
  
  * 1 John 1:8, 10. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.… If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

• * Hebrews 12:23. ...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.
  
  * 1 John 3:2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
  
  * Jude 24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy...
  
  * Revelation 21:27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

[ttruscott]

Is this reasonable? In other words, is it realistic to think this way, when most people have not had a "born again" experience where they were spiritually resurrected "of God" and not "of their own free will." Does this mean most people are going to Hell?

Most people? Certainly not! MOST people are living in heaven with our Lord and if you do not think angels are people, tell me how it goes when you explain this to Michael and Gabriel, eh? (I also have a whole list of quotes for support...) Only most sinners are going to hell and since it is written narrow the gate for sinners to be redeemed it seems that fewer elect chose to be sinners compared to the number of those who chose to sin the unforgivable sin of repudiating GOD's divinity and power, while far far fewer choose to be sinful in HIS sight compared to the uncountable trillions who chose to never sin.

Anyway, my main beef with Calvinism is with UNconditional election which insists that GOD chose some people for salvation from their sins and the rest of the sinners for damnation FOR NO REASON FOUND IN THEM, ie, no goodness nor evil caused their election or non-election.

While it would be unfair to contend that this means GOD chose by a whimsy or arbitrarily when HIS reason is just not known but if HE had a reason, is there some great need to not find that reason in the person and not in Divinity? I understand it is clearly written that SALVATION from sin has no basis in the goodness of the sinner since sinfulness overrides all previous goodness of the sinner once they have chosen to be evil but election is the PROMISE of salvation while redemption and repentance et al are the methods of the FULFILLMENT OF ELECTION, different things, different rules.

IF there was absolutely no condition found in those elected to cause their election then it is a logical necessity that there be no condition of evil found in those passed over for election because IF such a reason existed in them then there is also a condition found in the those elected as their NOT having the condition found in those passed over for election! ! Another word for 'not having a condition that GOD must repudiate' is the word INNOCENT! This pernicious blasphemy claims that GOD damns the innocent to hell before they ever sinned for NO REASON!! but try to hide that fact in their theological babble. (Calvinism also denies that HE looked to the future and found a reason in the future!)

IF sin is not chosen by a free will there can be no mens rea, no intent to sin, and therefore no guilty can be accrued by them!

Pre-Conception Existence theology contends that the only way a person can become a sinner is by the free will decision to rebel against GOD, not by HIS will by being created evil by inheriting an ancestor's sinfulness. PCE also contends that this choice to be faithful or evil happened pre-earth, pre-conception, before election in the spirit world and caused the conditions for a person's election or non-election before the foundation of the world: Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. in which chose is eklegó: Strong’s 1586. Usage: I pick out for myself, choose, elect, select. and world involves the universe: kosmos 2889. Usage: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

The choice to be faithful was rewarded by being chosen to be HIS elect, chosen to end in marriage with HIM. The decision to rebel against HIS claims to be GOD and to repudiate HIM as a false god and a liar resulted in their being condemned on the spot to being banished to the outer darkness because 1. they could never ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, the heavenly marriage and 2. a little leaven/sin, leavens/corrupts the whole lump/person, country, world, creation...that is, banishment was an absolute necessity to keep HIS heavenly state free from their corruption.

This relieves theology from the necessity to believe that GOD creates evil people by creating them evil in Adam and that HE condemned some to hell for no reason. Since there are absolutely NO verses that even hint that our pre-conception existence is impossible, those who reject it as unbiblical have no excuse for choosing a theology that demands that 1. GOD creates evil and 2. condemns the innocent to hell over a theology that repudiates such blasphemy.

Please peruse my notes at viewtopic.php?t=30413 that explain a few of the verses I use in support of our pre-conception existence which are ordinarily passed over for consideration because the pro-created on earth bias has had some 4000 years to solidify itself and its theories in people's minds so that they cannot even see how these verses relate to the topic without an explanation.

[PinSeeker]

Chapter 10 then deals with God's effectual calling:

Chapter 10
Of Effectual Calling

1. All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only,
he is pleased, in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call...

• * Acts 13:48. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
  
  * Romans 8:28, 30. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. ...Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
  
  * Romans 11:7. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
  
  * Ephesians 1:5, 11. ...having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will... in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.
  
  * 2 Timothy 1:9–10. ...who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.

...by his Word and Spirit...

• * 2 Thessalonians 2:13–14. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
  
  * James 1:18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
  
  * 2 Corinthians 3:3, 6. Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart ...who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
  
  * 1 Corinthians 2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

...out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ...

• * 2 Tim. 1:9–10. ...who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.
  
  * 1 Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
  
  * Romans 8:2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
  
  * Ephesians 2:1–10. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

...enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God...

• * Acts 26:18. to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
  
  * 1 Corinthians 2:10, 12. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. ...Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
  
  * Ephesians 1:17–18. ...that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints.
  
  * 2 Corinthians 4:6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
  ...taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh;
  
  * Ezekiel 36:26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

...renewing their wills, and, by his almighty power, determining them to that which is good...

• * Ezekiel 11:19. And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh.
  
  * Deuteronomy 30:6. And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
  
  * Ezekiel 36:27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  
  * John 3:5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  
  * Titus 3:5. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.
  
  * 1 Peter 1:23. ...being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

...and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

• * John 6:44–45. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
  
  * Acts 16:14. And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

...yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.

• * Psalm 110:3. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
  
  * John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
  
  * Matthew 11:28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
  
  * Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
  
  * Romans 6:16–18. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
  
  * Ephesians 2:8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.
  
  * Philippians 1:29. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

2. This effectual call is of God’s free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man,

• * 2 Tim. 1:9. ...who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
  
  * Ephesians 2:8–9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
  
  * Romans 9:11. ...(for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

...who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit,

• * 1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  
  * Romans 8:7–9. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
  
  * Titus 3:4–5. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

...he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

• * John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
  
  * Ezekiel 36:27. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
  
  * 1 John 5:1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Cf. 1 John 3:9

3. Elect infants, dying in infancy, are regenerated, and saved by Christ, through the Spirit...

• * Gen. 17:7. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
  
  * Luke 18:15–16. And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus
  called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
  
  * Acts 2:39. For the promise is unto you,and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
  
  * John 3:3, 5. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.… Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
  
  * 1 John 5:12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. See Luke 1:15.

...who worketh when, and where, and how he pleaseth...

• * John 3:8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

...so also are all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.

• * John 16:7–8. Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment.
  
  * 1 John 5:12. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Acts 4:12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

4. Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word...

• * Matthew 13:14–15. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive.
  
  * Acts 28:24. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. Cf. Acts 13:48.
  
  * Matthew. 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.

...and may have some common operations of the Spirit...

• * Matthew 13:20–21. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
  
  * Matthew 7:22. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
  
  * Hebrews 6:4–5. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come

...yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved...

• * John 6:37, 64–66. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.… But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
  
  * John 8:44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
  
  * John 13:18. I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. Cf. John 17:12

...much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess.

• * Acts 4:12. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
  
  * 1 John 4:2–3. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  * 2 John 9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
  
  * John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
  
  * Ephesians 2:12–13. ...that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
  
  * John 4:22. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
  
  * John 17:3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
  
  * Romans. 10:13–17. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

And, to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

• * 2 John 9–11. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
  
  * 1 Corinthians 16:22. If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.
  
  * Galatians 1:6–8. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you
  than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Dimmesdale]

Calvinism teaches that there is no action on our part that causes God to choose us as his children and be saved. That we are in a sense "born again" not through our will, but based upon God's decree.

Calvin derived this from Paul's letter to the Romans, primary where Paul says, "those who are foreknown are predestined". This is a key feature of Paul's doctrine of election. It is God who does the electing, not anyone else. He also points out that it is not "by will or effort" (Rom.9:16), but by God who shows mercy.

most people have not had a "born again" experience where they were spiritually resurrected "of God" and not "of their own free will." Does this mean most people are going to Hell?

It means everyone is going to hell. Hell refers to "the grave". We know this because the author of the Acts of the Apostles translates the Hebrew "Sheol" ("the grave") into the Greek "Hades" which is translated into English as "hell".

The bottom line is, most people believe and feel that they have free will, that they are good people trying to be as good as they can. That is the pat answer I've typically heard. But Calvinism totally reverses this and says "there is nothing in me that is good, only Christ working in me." And so on.

This isn't the bottom line, nor does Calvinism reverse this. Calvinism doesn't deny we have free will. Paul doesn't deny it either. The bottom line is that free will is irrelevant to our salvation because we can't choose what hasn't been revealed to us in the first place. We can't choose the kingdom or Christ as anything other than an idea. The problem is that the idea of something isn't what it refers to. It's still just an idea. Most, if not all professing Christians believe in an idea. They believe in doctrines they have been taught, but these doctrines in and of themselves are completely insufficient for generating true repentance and acceptance of the gospel. That can only come from God.

some people say you can't ascertain whether a certain person is going to hell because "you can't know their hearts." But other Christians (or Calvinisits) say "you will know them by their fruit" and that it is indeed Biblical to judge and confront people.

The damned can never know anyone's heart, even their own. The reborn believer not only knows their own heart is "deceitful above all things and desperately wicked", they know this is the condition of all humanity.

It is not necessary to judge or confront everyone. Only those who are active members of the church community who are supposed to be producing fruit. The word "fruit" can be misleading in that too many people conflate it with "works". The main difference being that fruit is produced systemically, and in this case it is produced by the power of Christ's holy Spirit whereas from the perspective of someone who is the beneficiary of charity, it will look no different to them. In other words, they can't tell if the free hot meal they're getting is the product of God's sovereign will, or simply someone who believes that their good works justify them.

there just doesn't seem to be a clear demarcation between "saved" and "unsaved" and that this runs counter to the human experience in general.

The demarcation is between a saved and unsaved, but also between the saved believer and the saved and reborn believer. The saved believer must rely upon Christ's sacrifice to cover their sins until they are reborn. The reborn believer is given a regenerated heart for the express purpose of keeping God's laws perfectly. They are sinless because they are created to be sinless and holy. Only God can make anyone holy and sinless.

It isn't reasonable to suppose those born to sin will do anything other than sin. It is quite reasonable to conclude that when God says he will place his commandments into the hearts of those he makes a new covenant with that they will keep his commandments. Therefore Calvinism is quite reasonable.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 3 by jgh7]

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Is there anyone God doesn't foreknow?

So now it appears that Jesus will not gather those who are not willing. This implies that there is some free-will choice or responsibility on our part to be willing.

No, Paul confirms Christ's words by pointing out that no one is willing to seek God or his righteousness.(Rom.3:10-12), but while this doesn't negate that they do this by their own will, it doesn't then follow that one's will or effort is a factor in one's salvation. This is where everyone gets confused. We cannot choose what we don't know. It simply isn't an option. The only option is to choose an idea of salvation, or God, but God is not an idea, or a doctrine to be followed or chosen.

So you can see that there is a strange mix between predestination and free will, God's actions and our choice.

There is no mix between predestination and free will. Free will is completely irrelavent. One's will and effort are completely insufficient to guarantee anyone's salvation. If will and effort were sufficient, no one would ever need to go on a diet, or seek therapy to lose weight, quit smoking, gambling, or any other addiction.

“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart� (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It's important to note that it is only by the word of faith planted by God into the new creature that they are able to make confession in the first place. Prior to that they have no choice. They have no choice afterwards either because it's a "no-brainer". When the choice is presented, one doesn't have to think about coninuing on their path to death and destruction.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 4 by PinSeeker]

the coexistence of God's perfect sovereignty over all His Creation and our free will is a mystery, and anyone who tells you they understand it perfectly is really fooling themselves.

It's not a mystery at all, especially when one rightly divides the word. Paul points out that it is "not by will or effort". Pretty straightforward, no? Perhaps you disagree, but one needn't resort to implying that people are fools to prove a point. It is especially disconcerting to see one make these claims when Christ himself points out that those who do are damned.

There is no mystery when we see that Paul doesn't deny the existence of free will, but simply points out that God is sovereign, not us. People will exercise their free will to do all sorts of nasty obnoxious things to other people, but this is the state of a fallen humanity. It's all they can do, and Paul points this out. He says that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot please God. If the carnal mind cannot please God, they simply can't make that choice.

Most Christians will immediatly ignore this fact and claim that we can repent and accept the gospel without ever considering the fact that the carnal mind's act of repentance and acceptance of the gospel will not only never please God, but it is strictly due to its own depravity that it does these things.

It is only the regenerated heart that can see the depths of its own depravity and repent in the first place.

It's analogous to the Triune God, how one God can exist in three distinct persons, in that respect; it cannot be fully understood in this life.

Probably due to the fact that it isn't biblical and it is completely incoherant.

However, both concepts can be accepted, even intellectually, as true and intensely rational.

Both concepts can only be accepted intellectually as they are only concepts. God is not a concept so those who accept these concepts aren't accepting God at all. This is one of the reasons atheists have begun to infiltrate churches. They know that their congregations are full of people who simply accept concepts rather than God, and these pastors have no problem leading congregations who actually don't believe in God at all. They have been taught theology rather than being born again which is to manifest God's will. It is the difference between theology and theophany, or Chistology and Christophany. It's just talk.

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that it is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined to good, or evil.

Except that we are all forced by our own natural inclination to sin. We are all born sinners. The bible explicitly points this out. Paul points out that the carnal mind is enmity against God. It can never please God. That is an absolute truth.

James 1:13–14. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil,

And yet Jesus was tempted with the personification of evil, Satan himself. Go figure.

neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Here again, James words can be compared to the gospel account of Christ's tempation. It may be disturbing for some to do this due to their inculcation of a sinless savior, but the fact remains that the texts explicitly point out that Jesus came 'in sinful flesh', and it was through that sinful flesh that we are saved. Not because he sinned, but because the flesh is sinful. The baby Jesus most definitely sinned as it is a sin to fill one's pants with their own feces. The fact is that infants aren't held accountable for this anyways, but this doesn't negate the fact that it's a sin. The bible points out that Christ was tempted just as all men are tempted, and we're not tempted of the devil except as anything other than the personification of our own lust.

Deuteronomy. 30:19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

These are the explicit conditions of the old covenant. They must choose. Paul abrogates this by pointing out that it is no longer by "will or effort", but by God who shows mercy.

2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God...

Sure, until he chose to disobey. There can be no freedom in disobedience due to the fact that the choice automatically precludes one from choosing obedience.

3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation...

Yes! Note he has lost all ability of will! Free will is a joke!

* Romans 6:6–7. ...knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.

... and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good...

"Freely" is not referring to the opportunity to choose evil. Even a deplorable pagan knows the opportunity to sin is the lowest and most depraved form of "liberty". The liberty we have in Christ does not allow us the opportunity to sin. That is how all are born carnally. The liberty we have in Christ allows us freedom FROM the bondage of sin.

* Philippians 2:13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

It is God working, not you. It is according to God's will, not yours. We are freed from sin, not free to sin. Everyone is born free to sin, so to then say we're free to sin isn't saying anything new, nor is it good. The gospel is good news.

* Romans 6:14, 17–19, 22. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. ...But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin,

Note the past tense "were"?

but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin,

Again, note that he states we are "free FROM sin" rather than free to sin.

ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity;

Again, note the past tense. "have yielded".

even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. ...But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Note the emphatic "even so NOW" as well as the present tense "yield";"being made free FROM sin"; "become"; "ye HAVE". None of this is in the future tense.

...yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.

Note that none of that can be found in the texts. It's all pure incorent nonsense, and completely contradictory to scripture.

* Galatians 5:17. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Again, this is only a problem for those who are still relying upon the conditions of the old covenant.

* Romans 7:14–25. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

This is no different than the conditions of the old covenant. All of Israel endeavored to keep God's commandments, and failed.

* 1 John 1:8, 10. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.… If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Again, note the past tense.

5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

Why not add in a state of perfect holiness as well? Add all the conditions you please, it doesn't add to the texts themselves.

* Hebrews 12:23. ...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

"Made" perfect? I thought you were saying that they would be made perfect later. Is there no difference between the past tense and the future?

* 1 John 3:2. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Do you see Christ as he is? There are some who do not know that when he shall appear we will be just like him. Does that negate your knowledge? I suspect you would say it doesn't, but then you could just as easily conclude that just because you don't see Christ in your neighbor, it doesn't then follow that no one else does either.

* Jude 24. Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy...

...but according to your doctrines, quite simply doesn't keep you from falling or present you faultless before his glorious presence.

* Revelation 21:27. And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination,

This is one of my favorites, especially because Christians believe that there is no such thing as an abomination anymore. The standard by which clean and unclean are distinguished has been done away in Christ so we can eat pork now because it is no longer unclean, and we can sodomize each other, or rather be sodomized because it isn't what enters, but what proceeds from the heart... Pure nonsense. The bible contains sound doctrines which only the devil can twist to make an abomination acceptable and condoned.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 5 by ttruscott]

This pernicious blasphemy claims that GOD damns the innocent to hell before they ever sinned for NO REASON!! but try to hide that fact in their theological babble. (Calvinism also denies that HE looked to the future and found a reason in the future!)

Paul does as well. His reason is quite straightforward. He simply points out that it is a given that God is just or righteous. If it is a given that God is righteous then it matters not a bit that God created people to sin according to HIS will. This is the argument Paul presents in Romans 9. He even points out that he creates vessels fitted for destruction in order to show his power over them, and vessels for mercy to show his glory. Paul doesn't need to come up with any new mythology to make his point. He simply provides God's righteousness as a Given, and then tells those who think it's not fair to "shut up".

IF sin is not chosen by a free will there can be no mens rea, no intent to sin, and therefore no guilty can be accrued by them!

Your premise is false. The premise Paul presents is that God's righteousness cannot be chosen by free will. Our free will allows us to sin, but it doesn't allow us to be obedient to Christ as our lord and savior. That can only come about by the father's revelation through the power of Christ's holy spirit.