What does this verse prove?

[Elijah John]

I, even I, am YHVH; and beside me there is no savior.
King James Version

For debate:

What does this verse prove, Biblically?

Does it prove that Jesus is YHVH?

Or does it prove that YHVH, not Jesus, is the Savior?

[ttruscott]

To follow any other church than the one Christ established is to really just be following your own church and you can never know for sure if you are getting it right.

Consider:
Did not GOD establish the Temple as the 'church' of HIS people yet the leaders of that church, the Pharisees, were so idolatrous of their religion and their place in it, they demanded the death of their Messiah...

The religion of the fathers (Adam-Moses) went wrong,
the religion of the Judges went wrong,
the religion of the Kings went wrong even with the prophets,
the religion of the scattered and brought back together went wrong...
yet you call us to be Church slaves because the church is all we can trust??? The Church of GOD is as full of Cain as the rest to the types of churches HE established to prove that no human organization can be holy or trustworthy and should not be idolized!!

Churches are used by those who do not know HIM nor trust HIM because they cannot hear HIM, though HIS sheep hear HIS voice and do not need a church of sinners to lead them.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 60 by ttruscott]

But individuals like yourself have been chosen to reveal spiritual truths to the elect?

Seems like the story every all cult leaders ever. Have you got yourself a following of the marginalized and easily influenced?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 57 by ttruscott]

if you presuppose old age and death as unnatural conditions in an ultimately finite universe.

Yes, old age, death and all suffering are a response to sin in this finite world, Prison Earth, home of all sinners and are indeed unnatural as the created nature of HIS creation was to become holy and righteous by their free will but the choice to sin and to follow sin created the need for this unnatural evil situation.

But this contra-natural place will burn and be replaced with the perfect. Maranatha!

[postroad]

[Replying to post 62 by ttruscott]

I suppose this makes the created the creative force directing the Creator?

[RightReason]

[Replying to ttruscott]

Consider:
Did not GOD establish the Temple as the 'church' of HIS people yet the leaders of that church, the Pharisees, were so idolatrous of their religion and their place in it, they demanded the death of their Messiah...

The religion of the fathers (Adam-Moses) went wrong,
the religion of the Judges went wrong,
the religion of the Kings went wrong even with the prophets,
the religion of the scattered and brought back together went wrong...
yet you call us to be Church slaves because the church is all we can trust??? The Church of GOD is as full of Cain as the rest to the types of churches HE established to prove that no human organization can be holy or trustworthy and should not be idolized!!

Churches are used by those who do not know HIM nor trust HIM because they cannot hear HIM, though HIS sheep hear HIS voice and do not need a church of sinners to lead them.

A rationalization given by every individual who has rejected His Church. The problem is it is a strawman and illogical . . .

Did not GOD establish the Temple as the 'church' of HIS people yet the leaders of that church, the Pharisees, were so idolatrous of their religion and their place in it, they demanded the death of their Messiah...

Did not Jesus always say . . . do as they say not as they do indicating although His chosen ones sometimes consisted of sinners and hypocrites, they still held truth – truth that He wished us to know.

The religion of the fathers (Adam-Moses) went wrong
the religion of the Judges went wrong,
the religion of the Kings went wrong even with the prophets,
the religion of the scattered and brought back together went wrong...

Yep, Jesus Himself personally chose Peter and yet Peter denied Him 3 times and had to be set straight even after that. Yet, we were still commanded, “He who hears you, hears me�. Do you doubt Christ’s words? Do you doubt His promise that He would remain with His Church? Why believe some of what He told us then? Makes no sense!

yet you call us to be Church slaves because the church is all we can trust???

You say slaves. And yet Christ calls us His children, His sons and daughters. The Church is our home and where Christ promised to remain. Trusting Christ is trusting His Church – He told us as much. Don’t you believe Him?

The Church of GOD is as full of Cain as the rest to the types of churches HE established to prove that no human organization can be holy or trustworthy and should not be idolized!!

Yes, the Church is full of Cain’s, always has been from the beginning, and yet it is the means God has chosen. It isn’t idolizing the Church to respect the authority given to her by Christ Himself – it is honoring Christ to do so. You do not get it and like I explained earlier, it is a bit arrogant to think one doesn’t need the means Christ established.

************

Even the sins of the Catholic Church are evidence of its truth. Its failures only point to the great value of its precepts. The world cannot abide the Church failing because the world unconsciously knows that the truth it proclaims must be upheld. Chesterton says that the sins of Christianity are one of the doctrines of Christianity. In other words, our sins point to one of our sacraments: confession. He says, "The Church is not justified when her children do not sin, but when they do."

https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/cu ... es-it.html

Churches are used by those who do not know HIM nor trust HIM because they cannot hear HIM

Riiiiiiight . . . so no one should have listened to Moses or the prophets or the Apostles? Those who trust Him – take Him at His words, “He who hears you, hears me�, “whatever you bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven�, the church is the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’

[postroad]

[Replying to post 64 by RightReason]

Someone once told me that the Israelites should have stood firm on Abrahams fulfilled work and told God to take his absurd Law and shove it.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 49 by brianbbs67]


Seems there is a discrepancy. Does God change he rules?

Was the garden not on earth?


Genesis 1:29
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.

Good question. We are not told if its on Earth or not. I assume it was but I have been wrong, before .

[RightReason]

[Replying to postroad]

Someone once told me that the Israelites should have stood firm on Abrahams fulfilled work and told God to take his absurd Law and shove it.

“Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.� ― G.K. Chesterton

[ttruscott]

Even the sins of the Catholic Church are evidence of its truth.

I'm not certain of you thesis here but to narrow down to this sentence, how does it not conflict with Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.…

[ttruscott]

...double post somehow.