"a standard of perfection that we cannot keep"

[Elijah John]

TBN preacher this morning said the reason the Law was given was to give us a "standard of perfection that we cannot keep" and to show us our need for a savior.

His statement is in accord with Pauline, NT theology. But is this really the purpose of the Law? The "original intent" of Moses, the lawgiver? (or God through Moses).

If so, where is the "Old" Testament evidence that the law was given not to be obeyed, but to demonstrate our need for a savior?

Is Paul's theology on this matter a bit of revisionism?

[marco]

[Replying to post 8 by marco]

Paul made his own law, replacing Christ's words with his own, cursing those who disagreed. Nice man!

What law did Paul make that replaces Christ's?

There are volumes of discussion on this. Take Paul's:

Romans 3:28 : "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW."

But Jesus would emphasise deeeds: giving to the poor, helping the needy, visitig the sick...

Paul is a authoritarian politician whereas Christ is humanitarian and compasionate.

[marco]

Are there any standards of perfection you can keep?

Yes. A student who scores full marks in an exam has attained perfection there. If we are dealing in abstractions then of course there are no bounds. Human judgments should be made on what a person can do within the bounds of possibility.

When Jesus suggested we be as perfect as God he was being provocative. He didn't meet that standard himself in that he admitted he was ignorant of some things the Father knew. But we can chop his words up to mean something else, such as being good at tying our shoe laces.

[shnarkle]

creating those who can't sin

I would suggest that it is a firming up of a resolve to full repentance until the person will never possible sin, ie cannot, that is the end result of being trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11. Not by force of mnd control of any kind but by the teaching of understanding coupled with discipline as painful as it needs to be to counter the person's stubbornness.

I disagree as teachign and discipline are external forces while the new heart God replaces the old dead heart with is an internal transformation that is according to God's will.

[showme]

creating those who can't sin

I would suggest that it is a firming up of a resolve to full repentance until the person will never possible sin, ie cannot, that is the end result of being trained in righteousness, Heb 12:5-11. Not by force of mnd control of any kind but by the teaching of understanding coupled with discipline as painful as it needs to be to counter the person's stubbornness.

I disagree as teachign and discipline are external forces while the new heart God replaces the old dead heart with is an internal transformation that is according to God's will.

The signs of a "new heart" (Ezekiel 36:26) is that you will "walk in my statutes", and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27) & (Malachi 4:4).

[showme]

Are there any standards of perfection you can keep?

Yes. A student who scores full marks in an exam has attained perfection there. If we are dealing in abstractions then of course there are no bounds. Human judgments should be made on what a person can do within the bounds of possibility.

When Jesus suggested we be as perfect as God he was being provocative. He didn't meet that standard himself in that he admitted he was ignorant of some things the Father knew. But we can chop his words up to mean something else, such as being good at tying our shoe laces.

And while you may be good at tying your shoe laces, the "kingdom of heaven, at hand", is about the spirit and power of God. And while the followers of Paul, may lack such power and spirit, apparently that power has restored "Judah", the Jews, and "Jerusalem" (Joel 3:1) in the land of Israel, the land I gave to Jacob, My servant" (Ezekiel 37:25). Tie that to your shoes, and see if it rings a bell.

[ttruscott]

I disagree as teachign and discipline are external forces while the new heart God replaces the old dead heart with is an internal transformation that is according to God's will.

Teaching and discipline are HOW the new heart is instilled...

[showme]

I disagree as teachign and discipline are external forces while the new heart God replaces the old dead heart with is an internal transformation that is according to God's will.

Teaching and discipline are HOW the new heart is instilled...

You quoted Truscott not 2nd pillar. 2nd pillar wrote:

The signs of a "new heart" (Ezekiel 36:26) is that you will "walk in my statutes", and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" (Ezekiel 36:27) & (Malachi 4:4).

No teaching or discipline apart from Har-Magedon (Revelation 16:13-16) is necessary. Har-Magedon apparently will be all the lessons and discipline necessary to "chasten" "Jacob" (Jeremiah 30:11) while "I destroy all the nations where I have scattered you".

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 27 by showme]

I will assume an auto correct feature happened with the 2nd pillar quote? Just curious. As to the debate, following God's instruction, the literal meaning of Torah, is a good start to wisdom. Fear of God is the first.

[showme]

[Replying to post 27 by showme]

I will assume an auto correct feature happened with the 2nd pillar quote? Just curious. As to the debate, following God's instruction, the literal meaning of Torah, is a good start to wisdom. Fear of God is the first.

Actually, Ecclesiastes 12:13 lists "fear God" before "keep His commandments", for without the fear of God, who is going to keep His commandments. This would be the summation of wisdom. Apparently the "many" (Matthew 7:13) reject having to fear God, and "many" bear the consequences, but not all (Malachi 3:15-16), for their time "is coming" (Malachi 4:1). "Destruction", is yet to come.

New American Standard Bible Ecclesiastes 12:13
The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.

Malachi 3:15‘So now we call the arrogant blessed; not only are the doers of wickedness built up but they also test God and escape.’�

Malachi 4:1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,� says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.� 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,� says the LORD of hosts.

[marco]

Malachi 4:1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,� says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.� 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,� says the LORD of hosts.

The day itself isn't burning like a furnace. Arrogant people don't have roots and branches; trees do. Silly metaphor. The sun may metaphorically rise but to add healing is to mix metaphors. Silly comparison. The concept of people turning into animals is the Transmigration of Souls which has little to do with Jesus, unless it's believed he changed into a sheep or a bull. Poor old Malachi must have had too much to drink when he produced the above mixed-up rubbish. It discredits the Bible.