For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

I agree with you that YHWH in the heavens (the Father) is distinct and has a role distinct from the angel of YHWH (the Son). For example, the Father sends the Son, not the other way round.

Yes, but one role implies authority, the other submission to authority, does it not? See point #3 below

#3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

Yes the Son submits to the Father. For Jehovah, as opposed to the Aristotelian God, submission and service is greatness. Its what Luther called the theology of the cross in contrast with the theology of glory of people like Aristotle.

[JehovahsWitness]

Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.

• Are you suggesting the angel of Jehovah is not an Angel?
  
  Or are you suggesting that some angels don't belong to Jehovah?
  
  Or are you attempting the circular reasoning of using the scrpture under contention to prove the contention?

JW

[dakoski]

The angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah.

That is not disputed, what is under dispute is what does this mean? Does it mean this angel is equal to Almighty God? Imcontend no. See point # 4 and #5 below

#4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.

# 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.

As I said there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for arguing that anyone other than almighty God is called Jehovah. Can you give examples of Gabriel, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, or anyone else being called Jehovah? Not that I'm aware of - that would be blasphemy.

[dakoski]

Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.

Are you suggesting the angel of Jehovah is not an Angel?

Or

Are you suggesting that some angels were not created?

Angel just means 'sent one' - Jesus was sent by the Father.

[JehovahsWitness]

Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.

Are you suggesting the angel of Jehovah is not an Angel?

Or

Are you suggesting that some angels were not created?

Angel just means 'sent one' - Jesus was sent by the Father.

So? So what?!

What point are you trying to prove?

[dakoski]

Since the verse is about everything belonging to Jehovah - then since the angel of Jehovah is clearly addressed as Jehovah in Scripture along with Jehovah in the heavens- then I don't see how this makes your case.

Are you suggesting the angel of Jehovah is not an Angel?

Or

Are you suggesting that some angels were not created?

Angel just means 'sent one' - Jesus was sent by the Father.

So? So what?!

What point are you trying to prove?

Just answering your questions from Scripture, not trying to prove anything beyond that.

[JehovahsWitness]

As I said there is absolutely no Biblical warrant for arguing that anyone other than almighty God is called Jehovah.

When you say "called Jehovah" do you mean ....

- Given/designated that name as ones personal name by which the individual will forever identify himself as literally being Almighty God?


Or

- "accept to be addressed as"?

[JehovahsWitness]

not trying to prove anything beyond that.

Well then I'll just ignore that post as being irrelevant. Do you mind?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

I agree with you that YHWH in the heavens (the Father) is distinct and has a role distinct from the angel of YHWH (the Son). For example, the Father sends the Son, not the other way round.

Yes, but one role implies authority, the other submission to authority, does it not? See point #3 below

#3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.

Yes....

Well then the "Angel of Jehovah" cannot be equal Almighty God who submits to nothing and nobody.

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

When you say "called Jehovah" do you mean ....

- Given/designated that name as ones personal name by which the individual will forever identify himself as literally being Almighty God?


Or

- "accept to be addressed as"?

What I'm saying is that Jehovah in the heavens, the angel of Jehovah, and the Spirit of Jehovah are the only three persons addressed in Scripture as Jehovah. There are examples of the narrator addressing them with this name, and also examples of OT saints addressing them by this name. I can find no examples where they refuse to be addressed with this name, or people are rebuked for addressing them as Jehovah. I think this is true to Scripture but by all means show me from the Bible if this is not the case.