The Bastard Kings of Israel

[StuartJ]

Jesus is said to have been descended from the David kings.

The Davids were no longer on the throne in Jesus' time.

In what looks to me to be political propaganda from a faction that took over from the Davids, Jesus' ancestry is shown, in early biblical writings, to be illegitimate.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 24 by bluethread]

However, prior to the written law, we have no record of a law against incest in HaTorah. Do you have a reference that indicates that?

OMG you are right ...

YOUR version of "God" forgot to include incest ...!!!

I know we Atheists are without a moral compass, but I'm going clearly state that I know better than your version of "God" right here.

However - I put it to you that you know perfectly well that the "law" I quoted can be seen as applying to the Tamar Turns a Trick story ...

Or it can be seen as not applying ...

I offer the hypothesis that that was the intention of the gentlemen of Yahweh who wrote it.

Unless you can demonstrate that this slanderous tale actually came from Jesus, or Yahweh, or the Holy Ghost, you will have to allow that it came from men ...

And men write slanderous political propaganda.

And the David's were bastard kings of Israel.

Unless the contradictory tales of Moses are both true, and turning tricks on your father-in-law was once acceptable practice.

Because, you know, humans can't develop laws without some version of "God" getting involved.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 29 by StuartJ]

Marriage ends when one of the parties dies. It is a contract till death do you part. This is understood by nearly everyone on earth. Except, you??

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 32 by brianbbs67]

You seem to have forgotten to address my suggestion that the men of Yahweh have written this nasty little tale so it COULD be taken whichever way the reader chooses.

You seem to have forgotten to address Tamar playing the harlot.

You seem to have forgotten to address Perez being the second born.

You seem to have forgotten to address demonstrating that his tale is the "Word of God".

You seem to overfocus on a comparatively minor point and forget to address major points.

All of which seem to me to be consequences of "faith".

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 32 by brianbbs67]

You seem to have forgotten to address my suggestion that the men of Yahweh have written this nasty little tale so it COULD be taken whichever way the reader chooses.

You seem to have forgotten to address Tamar playing the harlot. That

You seem to have forgotten to address Perez being the second born.

You seem to have forgotten to address demonstrating that his tale is the "Word of God".

You seem to overfocus on a comparatively minor point and forget to address major points.

All of which seem to me to be consequences of "faith".

Tamar playing the harlot was wrong. There is the belief that doing a sin for good reason is better than folowing law for the wrong one. I don't think I ascribe .(talmudic reference)

First born, second born, is a non plus to me. Doesn't matter.

You misunderstand the belief that scripture is God uttered. It is more a tale of man and his mistakes before the Lord. God spoke for sure, as I believe, but what man has written may vary.

Faith that God exists has no consequence, faith He doesn't , does. How can a rational , educated man, conclude there is nothing greater than him? And the big question is , how can something come from nothing?[/b][/i]

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 32 by brianbbs67]

You misunderstand the belief that scripture is God uttered.

My, my ... there seem to be quite a few quasi-atheists in this forum ....

We must have a thread on that.

Quite a few of the faith community, however, have what YOU call a misunderstanding of the belief that scripture is God uttered.

After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

Billy Graham thought so. But he did let an interesting fact slip: the only knowledge we have of Jesus Christ is in the Bible. (Which is worth putting in bold and underling and thinking about for quite a while.)
https://billygraham.org/decision-magazi ... rd-of-god/

Five evidences are presented here - including First, I believe the Bible is the Word of God because of its scientific accuracy. "Scientific accuracy" ... now there's a thing ...!
https://www.christianity.com/bible/auth ... 42346.html

"The Scriptures: We believe the Bible to be the verbally inspired Word of God without error in the original writings, and the supreme and final authority in doctrine and practice.� Mrs. Vickie Kraft, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-1-bible-word-god

I'm going to put forward that these eminent people of faith would say that it is YOU who misunderstands.

But one of the advantages of being a person of faith is never having to admit that it's YOU who has got it wrong.

Or having to back up your faith with good, old-fashioned, independently verifiable evidence.

[bluethread]

However - I put it to you that you know perfectly well that the "law" I quoted can be seen as applying to the Tamar Turns a Trick story ...

I don't recall you referring to any particular law. Please fresh my memory, to which specific law are you referring.

Unless you can demonstrate that this slanderous tale actually came from Jesus, or Yahweh, or the Holy Ghost, you will have to allow that it came from men ...

First, the use of the term "slanderous" biases the discussion. I see no slander. I have also referred to specific laws in the covenant with the nation of Israel, that was written down some 500 years latter, that appear to relate to the story of Tamar. Those are the law against harlotry and the law regarding the near kinsman redeemer. The Tamar story implies that those laws were customs that proexisted HaTorah. It also shows that Tamar did not violate either law, but rather shows how those two laws work together.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 36 by bluethread]

I put it to you that you know perfectly well which "law" ...

I posted it earlier.

I put it to you that you know perfectly well the Tamar Turns a Trick slander could have been written by the men of Yahweh AFTER they had written the supposed "laws" of Yahweh.

I put it to you that you know perfectly well that the oldest scraps of Genesis text are from Herodian times and the tiny scraps do NOT contain the harlotry story.

I ask you to question your honesty ...

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 32 by brianbbs67]

You misunderstand the belief that scripture is God uttered.

My, my ... there seem to be quite a few quasi-atheists in this forum ....

We must have a thread on that.

Quite a few of the faith community, however, have what YOU call a misunderstanding of the belief that scripture is God uttered.

After looking at the evidence, one can say without a doubt that, yes, the Bible is truly God’s Word.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html

Billy Graham thought so. But he did let an interesting fact slip: the only knowledge we have of Jesus Christ is in the Bible. (Which is worth putting in bold and underling and thinking about for quite a while.)
https://billygraham.org/decision-magazi ... rd-of-god/

Five evidences are presented here - including First, I believe the Bible is the Word of God because of its scientific accuracy. "Scientific accuracy" ... now there's a thing ...!
https://www.christianity.com/bible/auth ... 42346.html

"The Scriptures: We believe the Bible to be the verbally inspired Word of God without error in the original writings, and the supreme and final authority in doctrine and practice.� Mrs. Vickie Kraft, a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary
https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-1-bible-word-god

I'm going to put forward that these eminent people of faith would say that it is YOU who misunderstands.

But one of the advantages of being a person of faith is never having to admit that it's YOU who has got it wrong.

Or having to back up your faith with good, old-fashioned, independently verifiable evidence.

Did God inspire people to write, yes. Did they, as people get it right all of the time? I would imagine not as much was added later or revised to fit a doctrine of man. But, God still uses this to reveal Himself. The claim that people who have faith never have to worry about being wrong, is ridiculous. People are wrong all the time. Faith in God comes first. Faith in man is ridiculous , also.

So, if I understand you correctly, you don't have to back up your belief, ever, because you have faith you are correct? Independent of any evidence?

[Bust Nak]

I ask you to question your honesty ...

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[bluethread]

[Replying to post 36 by bluethread]

I put it to you that you know perfectly well which "law" ...

I posted it earlier.

I put it to you that you know perfectly well the Tamar Turns a Trick slander could have been written by the men of Yahweh AFTER they had written the supposed "laws" of Yahweh.

I put it to you that you know perfectly well that the oldest scraps of Genesis text are from Herodian times and the tiny scraps do NOT contain the harlotry story.

I know none of that perfectly well. I repost references quite often and see nothing wrong with asking others to do so. I am aware of the Josiah/Ezra theory, among others. However, knowing of them and being convinced of their vsalidity are two different things. I am also aware that almost all artifacts are partial. However, if you are going to question whether the events ever took place, you are undermining your own argument. If it never happened, the it can not serve as justification for calling the Kings of Israel bastards.