Did Jesus really turn water into wine

[WPG12]

I do think he did, but it isn't something I would argue over, because I wasn't there I read it in a book. But, I also believe it shows something more, I think Jesus, by turning water into wine at the beginning of his ministry was showing what he would do through his ministry, in pouring water into those vessels, then putting that Spirit in it. I think it's also pretty significant that it happened at a wedding, where a woman takes the name of her husband, much like Christian's call themselves by his name, though most do it to no avail.

[marco]

The usage of a little wine for the stomach isn't drinking a full bottle.

Exactly, and we'd have avoided useless discussion had you conceded this earlier. Instead you discussed drinking to excess, and nobody was supporting such extremity.

Returning, therefore, to relevant discussion, IF the Bible prohibited drinking alcohol, then it is reasonable to suppose Jesus turned water into something non alccoholic. But there is no such prohibition


However, he may have observed too much alcohol had been taken and so made some non-alcoholic drink. Miraculously.

This of course is pure supposition, unsupported by the text. We are led to believe people were enjoying a feast and the wine was possibly in short supply and needed replenishing. Jesus supplied more wine, without any suggestion of cautionary deception - juice for alcohol - else we might have expected that good deed to be credited to him.

Water to normal wine seems to be the intended interpretation. Whether the miracle happened at all is another matter. It seems odd that we would quibble over alcohol and close our eyes to the miraculous. If we are in the sphere of miracles, then obviously Christ could have laced his miracle with no harmful effects, just joy and peace and lasting gratitude, with no hangovers. Why not?

[marco]

One what do you base your assertion that there is little chance that drinking of alcohol for pleasure will occur in future kingdom?

The figurative meaning of the water to wine is that Jesus transformed the ordinary into the extraordinary, like transforming wine to blood. The first miracle presages his later purpose, perhaps; I will take the ordinary and make it extraordinary: simple men will become supermen; simple words will burn through time.


As for wine in heaven? I find it sadly amusing that the Koran, the supposed word of God, promises readers fresh water and ripe fruit, the Arabic desiderata in desert lands. As if this wasn't enough, the oasis of heaven will supply men with houris, women of unsurpassable beauty. Is the OT, populated with people who have witnessed the passage of hundreds of years, any wiser or better? Both texts are the wish-list of man with glimpses of history on alternate pages.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 32 by marco]

simple men will become supermen; simple words will burn through time.

Decent analogy, but I don't think it is really correct. No man is above another.
It's simply that Jesus poured knowledge into those men who followed him, and when they were filled with that Spirit, they became men of understanding. Not super men, just men with a god given understanding, an understanding which could be taken from them at anytime if they decided they were super men and rulers, protectors, and givers of truth instead of servants.

[marco]

[Replying to post 32 by marco]

simple men will become supermen; simple words will burn through time.

Decent analogy, but I don't think it is really correct. No man is above another.
It's simply that Jesus poured knowledge into those men who followed him, and when they were filled with that Spirit, they became men of understanding. Not super men, just men with a god given understanding, an understanding which could be taken from them at anytime if they decided they were super men and rulers, protectors, and givers of truth instead of servants.

In reality there are no supermen; we accord that status to some individuals out of admiration or, in the religious case, for their piety and proximity to Jesus. The Big Fisherman; the Man who met God on the Road to Damascus - these are not John Smiths. Of course our appellations are no more than the teenage adoration shown to the Beatles. But to believers, the apostles are extraordinary. That is all I meant.


The apostles are in one sense no more than puppets, dancing to Christ's tune. He changed them. We can see in Jesus a transformer; and the water into wine, the first transformation, leads us into the many others he will perform, including death into life.

It's just a thought.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 34 by marco]

No doubt, there are no super men, although there are those that do think they are the protectors and givers of truth. There is really only one guardian of the Galaxy, though men make themselves out to be Him. That is God himeselg, not any man

[FWI]

[Replying to post 23 by bluethread]

What do you base your assertion that there is little chance that drinking of alcohol for pleasure will occur in future kingdom?

In Revelation 21, we are told that eventually, a new heaven and new earth will be created. And, that the holy city, New Jerusalem will be the abode for the (visible image) of God. Additionally, verse 27 claims that nothing, which defiles or causes an abomination or a lie will enter this area. The book of Leviticus (in chapter 10, verses 8-11) tells us that God commanded Aaron and his sons not to drink wine or intoxicating drink, when they would go into the tabernacle of meeting. But, why? It's recorded: "So, that they may be able to distinguish between holy and unholy, as well as, clean and unclean." The reference to wine/intoxicating drink is clear.

However, these examples "seems" to be only for those invited into the holy city and priests, but that understanding would be incorrect. The O.T. introduces individuals who were known as Nazirites. These were men and women who took a vow to separate themselves to God. They, as well, were required to abstain from anything related to the grapevine, including: wine, vinegar and similar drinks, even the seeds and skins. The vow of the Nazirite was to express one’s special desire to draw close to God and to separate one’s self from the comforts and pleasures of the world. Yet, this was done for only a certain period of time.

Ironically, there is a parallel example in the N.T., where Paul tells the followers of the Christ to (basically) do the same thing in Romans 12:1-2. This example is not a limited one, but permanent for those desiring to enter into the Kingdom of God.

In Daniel 1:5-16, there is an example where Daniel and his companions refuse to partake in the wine and delicacies of king Nebuchadnezzar, so as not to "defile" themselves. Also, Deuteronomy 29:5-9 shows that God withheld wine and similar drink from the Israelites for 40 years. This again, as an example of God being near.

These examples and others "should" make it clear that being close to God, in His Kingdom, will require that wine (fermented) and similar drink, not to be available or desired…

[FWI]

[Replying to post 31 by marco]

Exactly, and we'd have avoided useless discussion had you conceded this earlier.

The useless discussion is a result of the false understanding that drinking fermented wine for pleasure, is the same as taking a little or spoon full for the stomach.

[Tcg]

The useless discussion is a result of the false understanding that drinking fermented wine for pleasure, is the same as taking a little or spoon full for the stomach.

It never ceases to astound me the words some believers will add to the Bible in order to support their position. You are obviously referring to 1 Timothy 5:23 and yet neither the word "spoon" nor the word "full", the ones you have added, appear in that verse.

Compared to the gallons Jesus transformed into wine, a quart or two a night could be considered "a little wine".

Honesty goes a long way in convincing readers of the point a poster is making. None should be convinced by the words you have added to support a claim the text you've added to doesn't make.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 38 by Tcg]

Honesty goes a long way in convincing readers of the point a poster is making. None should be convinced by the words you have added to support a claim the text you've added to doesn't make.

As I have already stated: I do not care if you believe me or if you don't. It is irrelevant…Yet, you need to practice what you preach…The idea of implying that the Greek word for "little" could mean: as much as: a "half a gallon" of wine each night, is way beyond reason. The bible would call this practice drunkenness. It just seems that you have bought into the propaganda that the alcohol industry and their paid supporters have introduced to the general public.

Example: A 750 ml bottle of wine is about 25.36 ounces or about (5) 5 ounce glasses. Note: a quart = 32 ounces.

So, for you to claim that drinking about 6-12 glasses of wine (daily) or about 2600-5200 bottles each year, would be (biblically) considered a "little wine" and approved by God and His Son is just wrong. We also need to consider that each bottle of wine contains about 90% water and this just shows how potent and harmful alcohol is.

Compared to the gallons Jesus transformed into wine.

Again, the Christ did not change the water into fermented wine. This idea suggests that the Son of God supported drunkenness. This can be surmised by the fact that the wine had run out, which suggests that the wedding banquet was in its final stage.

[bluethread]

The second word is: shekar (H7941), which means: what satiates or intoxicates. This saccharine drink rendered as "strong drink" and "strong wine" is a liquor made from dates or barley and always is used related to a curse. This surely would be consider "out of place" for the Feast of Tabernacles. Here again, the usage relates to what the translator believes. So, if a translator, who comes along thousands of years later and sees no problem with the usage of "strong drinks" or hard liquor, his opinion can affect the writings.

However, this is not a matter of translation. The term used in Deut. 14:26 is shekar. Are you saying that it is acceptable for one to use one's tithe to buy a curse for the Feast of Tabernacles? The passage says, "thou shalt eat there before the Adonai Elohiem, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household". That does not sound like a curse to me.