Alteration and additions to scripture

[polonius]

70 AD Mark 8 27 Jesus went on with his disciples to the villages of Caesarea Philippi; and on the way he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that I am?"
28 And they answered him, "John the Baptist; and others, Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."
29 He asked them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, "You are the Messiah."
30 And he sternly ordered them not to tell anyone about him.


80 AD Luke 9 Once when Jesus was praying alone, with only the disciples near him, he asked them, "Who do the crowds say that I am?"
19 They answered, "John the Baptist; but others, Elijah; and still others, that one of the ancient prophets has arisen."
20 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "The Messiah of God."
21 He sternly ordered and commanded them not to tell anyone,


80 AD Matthew 16 13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, but others Elijah, and still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.
19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.

Both Matthew and Luke writing in about 80 AD copied from Mark written about 70 AD. But Matthew is seriously flawed by an addition (see underlined above) not found in the original writing of Mark. It also contains two errors. Can anyone spot them?

[brianbbs67]

Matthew's account is different, but I don't know if that qualifies as false. It has more information that Luke or Mark, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify it, on that alone. What are the errors you refer too? I thought I had every added verse to the NT marked until now.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

The post is rather dull for a debate; it is more suitable for a kindergarten teacher asking kids "What is missing here?" I have no interest in "finding what the teacher wants me to find".

It is also erroneous because it assumes too much historically. Did Matthew and Luke rely upon Mark, yes. Did Matthew and Luke have ZERO independent sources that might have gone back to Jesus? Maybe, maybe not. Plutarch wrote several biographies, and they overlap in stories, and he alters the very same stories. That is, Plutarch wrote about a single event, but several times: one which focused on Caesar; another on Crassus; another on Brutus.

A single author; yet the accounts differ.

And yet historians of Rome do not throw Plutarch out; they still regard him of tremendous value.

It is no surprise that ancient authors like those of the gospels differ from one another on minute details. The habit of gawking at these differences comes from American fundamentalism, and a rather crude doctrine of errancy.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

The post is rather dull for a debate;

I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion at hand. In any case, given that you introduced this diversion, I'll address it.

Given that you did in fact reply to the OP which you claim is "dull", this is either a confession that you enjoy dull debates or else your odd complaint doesn't reflect the true depth of passion that drives you to respond.

I have no interest in "finding what the teacher wants me to find".

This is odd coming from a poster who recently created a thread urging others to stay on subject.

Does this new attitude reflect a recantation of your earlier plea for posters to stay on subject or is it a reflection of some double standard? You urge others to heed your impassioned plea, but you have no intention to follow it your self.

The rest of your post follows suit in not addressing the OP. Hopefully you'll get back on track at some point.

[polonius]

Matthew's account is different, but I don't know if that qualifies as false. It has more information that Luke or Mark, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify it, on that alone. What are the errors you refer too? I thought I had every added verse to the NT marked until now.

RESPONSE: If it is a contradiction or error, it is disqualified as false.

This happened before Jesus selected his apostles.

John chapter 1 NRSV

40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first found his brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah� (which is translated Anointed1.41Or Christ).

42He brought Simon1.42Gk him to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas� (which is translated Peter1.42From the word for rock in Aramaic (kepha) and Greek (petra), respectively).

This happened after Jesus selected his apostles.

Matthew 16:13,17-20 NRSV

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?�

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Question: Did this event really take place twice?

It may also be notable that there was no such word as "Church" in any language yet.

[polonius]

Matthew 2:13
13 After they had left, suddenly the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, 'Get up, take the child and his mother with you, and escape into Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, because Herod intends to search for the child and do away with him.'
14 So Joseph got up and, taking the child and his mother with him, left that night for Egypt,

OR
Luke 2:19
39 When they had done everything the Law of the Lord required, they went back to Galilee, to their own town of Nazareth.

One must be a contradiction and therefore (“God breathed�) in error.

[polonius]

https://www.thoughtco.com/city-of-bethl ... iew-700678

by Mary Fairchild
Updated July 02, 2018
“The city of Bethlehem, located about six miles southwest of Jerusalem, is the birthplace of our Savior Jesus Christ. Meaning "house of bread," Bethlehem was also the renowned City of David. It was there in young David's hometown that the prophet Samuel anointed him to be king over Israel “(1 Samuel 16:1-13).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldn ... years.html

“This is the small village of Bethlehem in the Galilee, located in northern Israel. And unlike the larger and better-known city of Bethlehem in the West Bank some 100 miles south, where thousands flock to to sing carols in Manger Square each year, there is not a single Christmas tree in sight.
Yet some insist that this patch of northern Israel is in fact the real place of Jesus’s birth. It is a claim that has provoked furious debate amongst archaeologists.

“Bethlehem in the Galilee is located just over eight miles away from Nazareth, where Mary and Joseph lived. With Mary nine months pregnant, they could have reached the Galilean Bethlehem in just under three hours. The Bethlehem in the West Bank would have taken almost two days of continuous travel by donkey to reach - something Dr Oshri considers implausible given Mary’s condition.�


QUESTIONS:

The traditional Bethlehem is in Judea whose residents were counted in Quirinius’ Roman census of Galilee conducted in 6 AD. Thus the story of the Holy Family’s trip to Bethlehem, no room at the inn, manager, etc.

But since Joseph and Mary were citizens of Galilee and not Judea, why were they counted in in the Judean census?

If they were indeed counted in Bethlehem, was it Bethlehem in Galilee or in Bethlehem Judea?

[dio9]

[Replying to polonius.advice]

Matthew was just writing what was a fact by his time .

By that time Peter was the rock upon which the church was built ,
did Jesus say the church as we know it was founded on Peter? Indeed it was a fact by Matthew's time.

and two there was only one church in those days so salvation was in fact only in the church.

So what Matthew wrote was true. Even if it wasn't in Marks Gospel. The Gospels appear to have been living scripture.

[brianbbs67]

Matthew's account is different, but I don't know if that qualifies as false. It has more information that Luke or Mark, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify it, on that alone. What are the errors you refer too? I thought I had every added verse to the NT marked until now.

RESPONSE: If it is a contradiction or error, it is disqualified as false.

This happened before Jesus selected his apostles.

John chapter 1 NRSV

40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first found his brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah� (which is translated Anointed1.41Or Christ).

42He brought Simon1.42Gk him to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas� (which is translated Peter1.42From the word for rock in Aramaic (kepha) and Greek (petra), respectively).

This happened after Jesus selected his apostles.

Matthew 16:13,17-20 NRSV

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?�

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Question: Did this event really take place twice?

It may also be notable that there was no such word as "Church" in any language yet.

I don't see that example proving much. Christ repeatedly told no one to tell. Knowing full well, they would. It seems to separate events, describe in like manner to me.

There was a word that became church, then. Kuriakos.

[polonius]

Matthew's account is different, but I don't know if that qualifies as false. It has more information that Luke or Mark, but that doesn't necessarily disqualify it, on that alone. What are the errors you refer too? I thought I had every added verse to the NT marked until now.

RESPONSE: If it is a contradiction or error, it is disqualified as false.

This happened before Jesus selected his apostles.

John chapter 1 NRSV

40 One of the two who heard John speak and followed him was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.

41 He first found his brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah� (which is translated Anointed1.41Or Christ).

42He brought Simon1.42Gk him to Jesus, who looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You are to be called Cephas� (which is translated Peter1.42From the word for rock in Aramaic (kepha) and Greek (petra), respectively).

This happened after Jesus selected his apostles.

Matthew 16:13,17-20 NRSV

13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?�

17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.

18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

20 Then he sternly ordered the disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah.
Question: Did this event really take place twice?

It may also be notable that there was no such word as "Church" in any language yet.

I don't see that example proving much. Christ repeatedly told no one to tell. Knowing full well, they would. It seems to separate events, describe in like manner to me.

There was a word that became church, then. Kuriakos.

QUESTION: Are you really saying that you see no difference between Mark's account and the much longer account of Matthew written about 10 years later?

For example, where exactly in Marks' account does it say anything about founding a church?