The Bible Told Me So

[SeaPriestess]

How did the Southern Baptists who instituted, maintained and perpetuated slavery in the American South keep a clear conscience as Christians? And mind you, from 1882 to 1968 they were lynching on Saturday night and praising God on Sunday morning? Really? Yes, really.

Eph 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear and sincerity of heart, just as you would show to Christ.

Col 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Col 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

Exodus 21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Titus 2:9-10 Slaves are to be submissive to their own masters in everything; they are to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior.

Yes, I know they have officially apologized. But during that time, were the consciences seared??
Is this a good example of how using the inerrant, infallible, God inspired holy scriptures can be used to justify evil devices, agendas, manifestos?

Should we be checking our conscience against scripture or the other way around?

lit·er·al·ism
ˈlidərəlizəm,ˈlitrəˌlizəm/
noun
the interpretation of words in their usual or most basic sense.
"biblical literalism"

[Elijah John]

Good points, SP. I see these verses as clear demonstration that the Bible is not perfect, and needs to be filtered through our God-given gift of reason and our conciences. And of course, God-given common sense.

Hello EJ!! Hope this finds you well...and staying somewhat cool!

If the word of God has to be filtered by human reason, then I feel those who read it lose valuable teachings from God. I find it is those things that I lack understanding in, is what propells me to dig deeper and find God's meaning. I mean, if we study an algebra book, and we don't understand it, we don't reason that it is wrong because of our lack of understanding.

Hi PN. "Somewhat" is the key word here. Hope it is relatively cool where you are.

Valubable teachings such as it's OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death because they are "property"? God-given reason and common sense filters that one out and dumps it out on the rubbish heap of primitive human barbarism, not Divine edict.

Otherwise where is the "deeper meaning" or the "valuable teaching" from God in Exodus 21.20-21? That passage is not one of Jefferson's "diamonds".

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to post 30 by SeaPriestess]

Biblical literalism is what got us out of the mess called slavery.

Exodus 21:16

“Anyone who kidnaps someone is to be put to death, whether the victim has been sold or is still in the kidnapper’s possession.

1 Timothy 1:9-10

We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers–and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.

These two verses alone is what rid us the institution of slavery in the west. The love of money is what gave us slavery for all the years that it did.

You forgot the rest of the verse that you were quoting. On these to commandments rest all the law and the prophets. We would not know how to love except for what is in the Bible. We would not understand that

4 Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. 7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

If it was not for the Bible.

[Peds nurse]

Good points, SP. I see these verses as clear demonstration that the Bible is not perfect, and needs to be filtered through our God-given gift of reason and our conciences. And of course, God-given common sense.

Hello EJ!! Hope this finds you well...and staying somewhat cool!

If the word of God has to be filtered by human reason, then I feel those who read it lose valuable teachings from God. I find it is those things that I lack understanding in, is what propells me to dig deeper and find God's meaning. I mean, if we study an algebra book, and we don't understand it, we don't reason that it is wrong because of our lack of understanding.

Valubable teachings such as it's OK to keep and beat slaves half-to-death because they are "property"? God-given reason and common sense filters that one out and dumps it out on the rubbish heap of primitive human barbarism, not Divine edict.

Otherwise where is the "deeper meaning" or the "valuable teaching" from God in Exodus 21.20-21? That passage is not one of Jefferson's "diamonds".

Human reasoning and God's reasons are quite different from each other. The people of Israel were brought out of a very terrible slavery that was to say the least, brutal. Perhaps, others standards of slavery were far worse than God's provisions for slaves. God is just because He can be no less, not because we agree or disagree with how He carries it out.

Always a pleasure EJ!

[Peds nurse]

Leviticus 25:44-46

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

What amazing me is how theists can't see that these texts are a dead give-away that they were written by a culture that focuses on itself rather than being the word or instructions of some God who was supposedly the creator of all humans on planet earth.

That sounds like this age, doesn't it?

Why would the creator of all humans be telling the Israelites that it's ok for them to ruthlessly enslave other humans as long as those other humans aren't Israelites?

Slavery was the culture back in that time. Things were certainly not as they were today. No one hired people for 8 hours a day to work in the fields. Sometimes, one should not imply today's culture to laws over 2000 years ago.

People used to go on witch hunts, people were hung, children were forced into labor, needles were not sterilized, and doctors made house calls. As horrible as some of that was, we don't apply those things to today's culture. Those were things of the past, for a generation that I suppose at the time, made perfect sense to them.

I see scriptures like these as a dead give-away that these religious writings are the product of a specific man-made culture and clearly have nothing to do with any Creator God who had supposedly created all humans who live on planet earth.

What I hear you saying is that because some scripture is hard to swallow, it makes the entire Bible unbelievable?

This cultural religion gives itself away in the most obvious ways. Yet theists refuse to acknowledge this. Instead, they choose to argue for a creator God who does indeed play favorites between nations of people. Is it any wonder that the Bible was used by "White" people to justify the slavery of "Black" people. If God plays favorites, then surely God must favor one of these groups over the other. And this leads to extreme religious racism, and cultural bigotry, the likes of which is clearly still alive and well in the world today. The USA currently being a nation of religious bigots that are a shining example of this type of cultural and racists warfare.

Favorites? He called the Israel to be His people because they called on His name in slavery. He heard their cry for mercy.

Religious racism and cultural bigotry have unfortunately raised their ugly heads to a national level again in November 2016.

And all we need to do is point to Leviticus 25:44-46 as proof that God condones cultural and/or racial discrimination.

How can you argue both ways? How can scripture be proof there is no God and that it was man made, and also at the very same time be proof that God condones racial discrimination. I fear you cannot have it both ways.

[Divine Insight]

How can you argue both ways? How can scripture be proof there is no God and that it was man made, and also at the very same time be proof that God condones racial discrimination. I fear you cannot have it both ways.

Simple.

It's obvious by the Biblical description of the Biblical God that the Bible cannot be referencing any actual "Real God".

Yet at the very same time the "Biblical God" (i.e. the God that doesn't exist but that religious people claim exists) condones racial and cultural discrimination.

So yes, I can have it both ways.

I never meant to imply that any actual "Real God" would condone racial and cultural discrimination. To the contrary, I'm actually saying that since the "Biblical God" condones these things, it should be obvious to everyone that the "Biblical God" is a man-made fiction.

[Tcg]

Biblical literalism is what got us out of the mess called slavery.

Biblical literalism got us into the mess called slavery:

Leviticus 25:44 - 46

"44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

If it was not for the Bible.

If it weren't for the Bible, the Southern Baptists wouldn't have had a reason to use God as a justification for the slavery they endorsed.

[2timothy316]

If it weren't for the Bible, the Southern Baptists wouldn't have had a reason to use God as a justification for the slavery they endorsed.

What a naive statement. The practice of slavery started way before there were baptists of any kind.

So this statement begs the question, which came first, the Mosaic law on slavery or slavery?

[SeaPriestess]

[Replying to post 33 by Peds nurse]

As I see it, when God gives us "human reasoning" it's actually God reasoning when it's "God-given" as EJ stated. So, as Christians, we are very capable of using logical reasoning to understanding the bible as opposed to using biblical literalism. Obviously, some things in the bible aren't rocket science. When Jesus said to love, he meant literally to love people, treat them as you want to be treated etc...It's literal and we can understand that logically. But these more difficult seemingly contradictions take God-given reason to understand, which we are all trying to do here. That God-given reason is a full understanding of context, time and culture which again, are being used to unpack this. It is clear that those who instituted slavery exploited the scriptures for their own devices and they are guilty of heinous crimes. They used biblical literalism in favor of God-given, logical human reasoning and a true understanding of the loving God we see in Jesus. Getting from OT God to NT Jesus can be a bumpy road. That's just my opinion. I may not have all the perfectly logical explanations and understanding but I just know there is more to the story.

I personally only feel and believe in the love I experience from a belief in Jesus. I try to express that in how I treat others. But I know that the culture and time in which I live creates lots of limitations in how I can carry that out. Like I know there are numerous injustices in the world and I am limited in how I can directly effect those things because of circumstances beyond my control.

"Favorites? He called the Israel to be His people because they called on His name in slavery. He heard their cry for mercy."

Amen to that and hence why many of my black and brown friends are Christians!

[Peds nurse]

How can you argue both ways? How can scripture be proof there is no God and that it was man made, and also at the very same time be proof that God condones racial discrimination. I fear you cannot have it both ways.

It's obvious by the Biblical description of the Biblical God that the Bible cannot be referencing any actual "Real God".

Hey DI!

Descriptions are based upon perceptions of what we see and experience, would you agree? Your perceptions of how the Bible describes God, is not conclusive to His being real or not.

Yet at the very same time the "Biblical God" (i.e. the God that doesn't exist but that religious people claim exists) condones racial and cultural discrimination.

So yes, I can have it both ways.

I never meant to imply that any actual "Real God" would condone racial and cultural discrimination. To the contrary, I'm actually saying that since the "Biblical God" condones these things, it should be obvious to everyone that the "Biblical God" is a man-made fiction.

What would it matter what a God claims when you feel He doesn't exist? I don't see the point of the argument.

I also don't understand how God telling His people to buy slaves from other nations is racial.

[Divine Insight]

Hey DI!

Descriptions are based upon perceptions of what we see and experience, would you agree? Your perceptions of how the Bible describes God, is not conclusive to His being real or not.

I disagree. In fact, if both you and I were to accept your claim that descriptions are based entirely upon our perceptions, then you would need to agree that any and all descriptions of a God in the Bible are totally meaningless, save for whatever individual people perceive them to be. You certainly couldn't build a religion as socially powerful as Christianity on that premise. So this is clearly not the position held by Christian theists and clergy over the centuries.

So no, I do not agree that descriptions are totally open to personal perceptions.

In fact, if that were true then college professors could never mark any answers on any exams as being wrong. How could they if the students could just argue that their answers are based on their own personal perception of what the question was describing?

So I don't see where your position has any merit at all in any practical sense.

Yet at the very same time the "Biblical God" (i.e. the God that doesn't exist but that religious people claim exists) condones racial and cultural discrimination.

So yes, I can have it both ways.

I never meant to imply that any actual "Real God" would condone racial and cultural discrimination. To the contrary, I'm actually saying that since the "Biblical God" condones these things, it should be obvious to everyone that the "Biblical God" is a man-made fiction.

What would it matter what a God claims when you feel He doesn't exist? I don't see the point of the argument.

It matters because I live in a world where other people are behaving in ways that they defend as being ordained and condoned by this fictional God.

Just because the God is fictional doesn't mean that a belief in this fictional character by other people isn't affecting me or other people that I care about.

So this is why it matters to me.

A God doesn't need to be real to be dangerous. Fictitious Gods can indeed be quite dangerous simply because people are using them to justify their behavior.

Consider suicide bombers who kill people in the name of Allah. Even if you consider Allah to be a fictional God doesn't it still matter to you that people are killing people in Allah's name?

A fictitious God can be extreme dangerous.

I also don't understand how God telling His people to buy slaves from other nations is racial.

Whether or not it's "racial" discrimination depends on the nations involved. But even if nations of the same race were enslaving each other, that would still be "cultural discrimination" because each nation is considered to be a separate "culture".

So this fictitious Biblical God has condoned cultural discrimination. And that becomes a dangerous and horrific thing in the real world which matters to me, and should matter to you as well.

Also, recall that from your first quote in this post you argued that everyone's perceptions of what is being described in the Bible is a matter of personal perception.

If that's the case, then why not just argue that according to your perception the Biblical God never told his people that they could buy slaves from other nations?

This then leads to people quoting directly from the scriptures where these things are stated. And then it becomes an argument that the Bible never actually means what it actually says and that we need to pretend that it means something entirely different that it's not saying at all.

And then just as college professors can mark incorrect answers to exam questions, it can be pointed out that your argument fails to address what the scriptures are literally saying.

In short, the argument that the Bible shouldn't be taken "literally" because you personally disagree with what it "literally" says and would prefer to believe something else, basically doesn't work in the real and practical world.

Your approach only works in Bible Study Classes where the goal is to support that the Bible is wholesome and sane in spite of its own literal evidence against this goal.

You are then given a gold star on your forehead for being such a great Bible Study student and no one challenges the irrationality behind this entire process. In fact, if they do challenge it with any tenacity at all, they are chastised for being a "disruption" in the class. In fact, if they are too tenacious in their points they will often be asked to leave entirely, or they will be branded as someone who obviously "Hates God" and must have some sort of a personal problem that they need to deal with.