In God we trust

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Udanor
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In God we trust

Post #1

Post by Udanor »

who is God an the US?

Last time I was in America (that was after 9/11) I went to a church meting.
It started out worshipping the Lord, after that the people preaching started to talk about how great the United States of America was.

They talked about how great America was compared to the rest of the world.
How we only do the right things and never makes mistakes
After a wile they basically started praising the flag and "for which it stands".
They said they were "patriotic"..... :-s

I have seen a lot of christian people that do the same thing...

I did not stand to "The Star Spangled Banner" that time. I just didn't think it was right to worship anyone but God.


My question is this... am i right?.... do we tend to be to "patriotic"?
(the reason I say "we" is because I am an American citizen, but i live in sweden)
or am I wrong to bring this up?

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Confused
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Re: In God we trust

Post #21

Post by Confused »

Aristarkos wrote:
Confused wrote:I think you confuse politics with religion. There is a reason they are separate. Perhaps you need to never put the words patriotic and Christian in the same sentence. Then maybe you might realize how ignorant a statement such as American Christians are too Patriotic really is.
Ignorant? Explain why you think so. I am eager to learn.
Patriotism is a form of recognition of those who died for what our country experiences now: freedom. It is a way to remember those who laid their lives down for what they believed in so that you can have the life you have today or the life you aspire to have some day. It recognizes not only our country, but those who died to make it our country. It may have freed some from religious persecution, but it mostly freed those from political suffocation (even if it was mostly the elite). We recognize our flag in acknowledgement of those who died to create what we have created. We don't worship the flag or the concept of Patriotism in the form of a religious rite. Rather we recognize it as respect.

Christianity is religion. It has no business whatsoever being mixed with politics. A Christian who is patriotic is a Christian who believes in God and recognizes the sacrifices that were made by our forefathers in order to create a nation that you now live in. They in no way contradict each other, but they are in no way related to each other either.

We try hard not to mix politics and religion for many reasons. But I think if you give more power to one over the other, the results have never been good. When religion held all the power we had the Holy wars, when politics had all the power, you have Hitler. Hmmmm, tough choice.
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What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
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Post #22

Post by McCulloch »

Colossians 3:9-11 wrote:Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him-- a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
Patriotism, which is not the same as politics, should have no place in the religion of the fellow who wrote the above cited passage. Christians perhaps could be patriotic, they could support their favourite football team, but that has no place in their practice of Christianity.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Aristarkos
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Re: In God we trust

Post #23

Post by Aristarkos »

Confused wrote:We try hard not to mix politics and religion for many reasons.
Who is “We”?

In my earlier statements I wasn’t trying to mix politics and religion or patriotism and religion. I was complaining about those who do. I was thinking about the religious-right and political leaders who on one hand claim to be devout Christians and on the other hand seem eager to kill their “neighbors” across the sea. Should a Christian be enthusiastically patriotic for their country right when their country is doing something that is out-of-sync with the teachings of Jesus?
The hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood. -MLK
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Confused
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Re: In God we trust

Post #24

Post by Confused »

Aristarkos wrote:
Confused wrote:We try hard not to mix politics and religion for many reasons.
Who is “We”?

In my earlier statements I wasn’t trying to mix politics and religion or patriotism and religion. I was complaining about those who do. I was thinking about the religious-right and political leaders who on one hand claim to be devout Christians and on the other hand seem eager to kill their “neighbors” across the sea. Should a Christian be enthusiastically patriotic for their country right when their country is doing something that is out-of-sync with the teachings of Jesus?
We, should include those who are American and consider themselves patriotic. I see the point you are trying to make, but the OP to this thread is about "worshipping" the flag as if it a religious icon. That is mixing religion with politics because the flag is a political sign, not a religious icon. You are mixing religion with politics when you say Christians shouldn't be patriotic because the US may be doing something out of sync with Christianity. First, I don't recall Christ ever preaching peace, in fact He Himself said he would turn brother against brother, bring war and famine, etc..... So war is hardly out of sync with His teachings. Yes, He also said love your neighbor and turn the other cheek, but this conflicts with the previously mentioned statement. If he really expected man to do this, the Revelations wouldn't be in the NT now would it. The fact is, He Himself will be the one to start the final battle. But once again, totally irrelevant to this OP. The flag is a representation of patriotism, recognizing those who died for their country, not a God who died for the world.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #25

Post by joer »

Udanor

My church has sung hymns like America the Beautiful. I’ve never sung the Star Spangled Banner at church. But I’m sure I would stand if it was sung. Even if no one else was standing and put my hand over my heart and face the flag if there was one. Just like I do at the ball game even though I come to watch baseball not to honor the flag. I would just do it out of habit and a personal respect I feel for the Flag and what it represents. Sometimes I even cry or get moved by it. I think about all the struggles this country has been through and all the sacrifices people in this country have made for the freedom we have.

And I’m saddened by the actions of our current administration and the loss of respect our country has suffering in the eyes of the world because of them. If you didn’t want to stand I figure that’s your personal choice and it’s not my place to judge why you did or didn’t stand. I love my country but God always comes first. But I don’t see any conflict honoring something that is SUPPOSED to stand for what is right and just. And the fact that well over 90% of our countries founders were God believing humans and the basis of our laws was to respect each other as God has taught us.

What does kinda’ bug me is Confused saying:
First, I don't recall Christ ever preaching peace, in fact He Himself said he would turn brother against brother, bring war and famine, etc..... So war is hardly out of sync with His teachings.
He may find biblical quotes to support what he says, but it couldn’t be farther from the truth. And why promote something so negative as WAR weather you’re a Christian or not?

I can’t believe Confused has never heard of Christ preaching peace, when all these scriptures refer to Christ preaching peace.
M't:5:9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
M't:10:13: And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
M'r:5:34: And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
M'r:9:50: Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Lu:1:79: To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Lu:2:14: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
And even if you quote scripture that turns “brother against brother” as you say. Why would you promote it instead of the ample scripture on the teachings of Christ that show how important loving one another really is? What about Christ promoting brotherhood as the next most important thing to worshiping God?
M't:5:24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
M't:7:3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
M't:7:4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
M't:7:5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Ro:12:10: Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Ro:14:10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Ro:14:13: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1Th:4:6: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th:4:9: But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Heb:13:1: Let brotherly love continue.
1Pe:2:17: Honour all men. Love the brotherhood.
2Pe:1:7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
1Jo:2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo:4:20: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo:4:21: And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Beats me why Confused would promote those ideas unless he just wants to discredit the Bible. But I can't understand the value of doing that at the expense of promoting such negative ideas as WAR and turning person against person. I mean isn't there enough of that in the world already?

Peace be with you Confused and with you all! :)

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Post #26

Post by Confused »

Joer:
What does kinda’ bug me is Confused saying:
Quote:
First, I don't recall Christ ever preaching peace, in fact He Himself said he would turn brother against brother, bring war and famine, etc..... So war is hardly out of sync with His teachings.


He may find biblical quotes to support what he says, but it couldn’t be farther from the truth. And why promote something so negative as WAR weather you’re a Christian or not?

I can’t believe Confused has never heard of Christ preaching peace, when all these scriptures refer to Christ preaching peace.

Quote:
M't:5:9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
M't:10:13: And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
M'r:5:34: And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace, and be whole of thy plague.
M'r:9:50: Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.
Lu:1:79: To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.
Lu:2:14: Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

And even if you quote scripture that turns “brother against brother” as you say. Why would you promote it instead of the ample scripture on the teachings of Christ that show how important loving one another really is? What about Christ promoting brotherhood as the next most important thing to worshiping God?

Quote:
M't:5:24: Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
M't:7:3: And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
M't:7:4: Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
M't:7:5: Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Ro:12:10: Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Ro:14:10: But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Ro:14:13: Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
1Th:4:6: That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
1Th:4:9: But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
Heb:13:1: Let brotherly love continue.
1Pe:2:17: Honour all men. Love the brotherhood.
2Pe:1:7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
1Jo:2:10: He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
1Jo:4:20: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jo:4:21: And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.


Beats me why Confused would promote those ideas unless he just wants to discredit the Bible. But I can't understand the value of doing that at the expense of promoting such negative ideas as WAR and turning person against person. I mean isn't there enough of that in the world already?

Peace be with you Confused and with you all!
First off, please look at my profile, you will see "female". Second, the part you decided to edit out said he did preach to turn the other cheek, love your neighbor, etc.... These do conflict with all of Revelations, as well as His sermon about Him not being here to bring peace. So get you facts straight before you misquote people. I have no desire to discredit the bible. You have so completely misunderstood me you don't even know what you are talking about. I am never once promoted the idea of war, I did however say the Christ did for the "final war" in Revelations as well as turning brother against brother etc.... You take Christs negative words and twist them into mine and somehow this is to make me promoting negative ideas?

How about instead of attacking my posts on an individual basis, you put them in the context of this thread. You can't possible even begin to have any insight into me or my motivation, nor my quest based on anything in this thread. So until you know about the person you are quoting, I would strongly suggest you consider asking them personally before you feel so inclined as to deduce your own opinions. In this case you are so far from the truth, I seriously doubt you would know it if it smacked you upside the head.

Peace belongs to all, not just those who think they are righteous through the blood of Christ.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Post #27

Post by joer »

ROFL! :lol: :-k :-k :-k

Howdy Confused! Please to meet you! Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Peace be with you my peace loving sister.

If there's something I need to know about you in order to participate candidly in this thread, Please let me know you!

I don't mean to be offensive. It's just that some of things you were saying just seemed so contrary to the important life changing, loving, peaceful teachings that are the WELL KNOWN ( by Christians and atheists both) main stay of Jesus’' teachings.

Sorry Confused. Hope to get to know you soon! Peace sister! O:)

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Post #28

Post by Confused »

joer wrote:ROFL! :lol: :-k :-k :-k

Howdy Confused! Please to meet you! Sorry about the misunderstanding.

Peace be with you my peace loving sister.

If there's something I need to know about you in order to participate candidly in this thread, Please let me know you!

I don't mean to be offensive. It's just that some of things you were saying just seemed so contrary to the important life changing, loving, peaceful teachings that are the WELL KNOWN ( by Christians and atheists both) main stay of Jesus’' teachings.

Sorry Confused. Hope to get to know you soon! Peace sister! O:)
Will PM response.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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Re: In God we trust

Post #29

Post by Goat »

Confused wrote:
Aristarkos wrote:
Confused wrote:We try hard not to mix politics and religion for many reasons.
Who is “We”?

In my earlier statements I wasn’t trying to mix politics and religion or patriotism and religion. I was complaining about those who do. I was thinking about the religious-right and political leaders who on one hand claim to be devout Christians and on the other hand seem eager to kill their “neighbors” across the sea. Should a Christian be enthusiastically patriotic for their country right when their country is doing something that is out-of-sync with the teachings of Jesus?
We, should include those who are American and consider themselves patriotic. I see the point you are trying to make, but the OP to this thread is about "worshipping" the flag as if it a religious icon. That is mixing religion with politics because the flag is a political sign, not a religious icon. You are mixing religion with politics when you say Christians shouldn't be patriotic because the US may be doing something out of sync with Christianity. First, I don't recall Christ ever preaching peace, in fact He Himself said he would turn brother against brother, bring war and famine, etc..... So war is hardly out of sync with His teachings. Yes, He also said love your neighbor and turn the other cheek, but this conflicts with the previously mentioned statement. If he really expected man to do this, the Revelations wouldn't be in the NT now would it. The fact is, He Himself will be the one to start the final battle. But once again, totally irrelevant to this OP. The flag is a representation of patriotism, recognizing those who died for their country, not a God who died for the world.
Yes, the flag is a poliitcal symbol. However, since the 1950's, due to the 'one nation, under god', has turned into a religious symbol also for some. And, you are pleding allegence to the flag.. not to the nation, not to god, but to the flag.

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Re: In God we trust

Post #30

Post by Confused »

goat wrote:
Confused wrote:
Aristarkos wrote:
Confused wrote:We try hard not to mix politics and religion for many reasons.
Who is “We”?

In my earlier statements I wasn’t trying to mix politics and religion or patriotism and religion. I was complaining about those who do. I was thinking about the religious-right and political leaders who on one hand claim to be devout Christians and on the other hand seem eager to kill their “neighbors” across the sea. Should a Christian be enthusiastically patriotic for their country right when their country is doing something that is out-of-sync with the teachings of Jesus?
We, should include those who are American and consider themselves patriotic. I see the point you are trying to make, but the OP to this thread is about "worshipping" the flag as if it a religious icon. That is mixing religion with politics because the flag is a political sign, not a religious icon. You are mixing religion with politics when you say Christians shouldn't be patriotic because the US may be doing something out of sync with Christianity. First, I don't recall Christ ever preaching peace, in fact He Himself said he would turn brother against brother, bring war and famine, etc..... So war is hardly out of sync with His teachings. Yes, He also said love your neighbor and turn the other cheek, but this conflicts with the previously mentioned statement. If he really expected man to do this, the Revelations wouldn't be in the NT now would it. The fact is, He Himself will be the one to start the final battle. But once again, totally irrelevant to this OP. The flag is a representation of patriotism, recognizing those who died for their country, not a God who died for the world.
Yes, the flag is a poliitcal symbol. However, since the 1950's, due to the 'one nation, under god', has turned into a religious symbol also for some. And, you are pleding allegence to the flag.. not to the nation, not to god, but to the flag.
Just because some percieve the flag to be a religious icon because of the "under God" issue doesn't make it a religious icon.
" I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United State of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God (many remain silent for this phrase and are entitled to), indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all." You are pledging your allegiance to a political creed, not religious.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

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