Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[marco]

Was God right? yes the true God of Abraham was right to stop the killing. The idea to sacrifice children was not from the true God. Remember Abraham knew false gods, and he smashed them. Lets say he knew a false god when he saw one . He knew the idea to kill Isaac was wrong and couldn't do it no matter what. Why? because Abraham knew the God of heart.

No one is questioning whether it was right to prevent murder. Was it right to instigate it? If Abraham could bargain over a decision made by God then he could have bargained over the evil command. He didn't. If this was all a game: God knew, Abraham knew - then it is a silly story setting a horrific example. We are reminded of the superstitious background by the slaughter of the ram. What have people in the 21st century to learn from barbarities? We already know not to slaughter our children. But some of us believe that God can ask us to kill - as he once did.

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

well the belief that God would order us to kill is just wrong. Anyone who believes that is delusional mentally ill. Any god we think is telling us to kill is a false god. The criteria to judge true or false could be God is our father , We know today fathers don't kill their children. That would be total mythological nonsense. Like Greek titans eating their children.

[brianbbs67]

Have you ignored the OT? God ordered the killing of many peoples who He found evil. Sometimes Isreal complied, sometimes not.

Here is what many miss. Murder is completely different from killing. The Commandment is Thou shall not murder. Killing is necessary to life. Murder is not.

[marco]

Well the belief that God would order us to kill is just wrong. Anyone who believes that is delusional mentally ill. Any god we think is telling us to kill is a false god. The criteria to judge true or false could be God is our father , We know today fathers don't kill their children. That would be total mythological nonsense. Like Greek titans eating their children.

The belief may be wrong but the command is wrong too. If you are arguing that there is no such command in the OT then I have no answer. Sadly there are bad people, neither mentally ill nor delusional, who kill in God's name, even today.

The criterion that God is our father and fathers don't kill is not a terribly safe one. God is our figurative father but some fathers do kill their sons. And God killed all the children in Sodom, despite being the father; but again that might be another erroneous biblical report.

Incidentally the Titans didn't as a rule eat their children but exceptionally Saturn did, to prevent his divine offspring being dangerous rivals. Goya depicted this quite graphically:


https://i2.wp.com/horrorpedia.com/wp-co ... C799&ssl=1




Anyway, Yahweh didn't eat Isaac - he simply ordered his death.

[marco]

Have you ignored the OT? God ordered the killing of many peoples who He found evil. Sometimes Isreal complied, sometimes not.

Here is what many miss. Murder is completely different from killing. The Commandment is Thou shall not murder. Killing is necessary to life. Murder is not.

I suppose philosophically this is true but if Sarah was told her son was killed by his dad rather than murdered I don't think the distinction would bring much relief. Luckily of course it was the ram that was killed.


But you are right - Thou shalt not murder - is a better rendering of the commandment since it avoids the problem of killing to save lives, which is not murder.

In the case of Abraham, I think the command involved murder.

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

I'm just trying to argue the story of Abraham is a legendary literary creation, making points among others against child sacrifice and wanting to fornicate with angels.

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

I'm just trying to argue the story of Abraham is a legendary literary creation, making points among others against child sacrifice and wanting to fornicate with angels.

I appreciate you are trying to make sense of the senseless. What I am doing is taking a biblical account and illustrating that it presents God as giving a wicked command; and the tale itself sets a bad precedent - God can ask a person to murder.

Now if biblical tales like the Flood and Sodom and Lot's wife and Goliath are just myths then perhaps we can accept that the NT, based largely on the myths of the Old, contains myths, such as the nativity, resurrection and ascension.

[William]

[Replying to post 146 by marco]

Now if biblical tales like the Flood and Sodom and Lot's wife and Goliath are just myths then perhaps we can accept that the NT, based largely on the myths of the Old, contains myths, such as the nativity, resurrection and ascension.

As well as the story of Abraham being order by a GOD to kill Issac.

The idea re mythology is to dig into it and see what might be found. Treating it as literal is like unto creating a mile deep sheet of solid ice over it where no digging can be done.

"I dig, therefore I discover..."

[dio9]

[Replying to marco]

Yes but good men don't kill. David did not kill Saul when he had the chance either. I think it was Abraham who stopped himself from killing Isaac. The idea what God wants in the ancients was limited. Jesus coming much later taught God does not want sacrifices. God just wants people to get back in sync with the rest of creation.

It is Man who says God is giving a wicked command. Man thinks God wants sacrifice . Really now Man wrote the book. Its about what he thinks God wants. Obviously Man is wrong here, as Isaiah said my words are not your words.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to marco]

I'm just trying to argue the story of Abraham is a legendary literary creation, making points among others against child sacrifice and wanting to fornicate with angels.

The Nephillim were far gone by this time.