Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 118 by myth-one.com]

No bloodshed was ever intended.

God and Abraham knew that fact.

Abraham passed the test.

So what is the takeaway from this? What are readers to think? That one is to obey God, even if one knows, like you say Abraham knew, that God doesn't really want you to do it anyway? That one is to go through with the motions of the act, right up until the last moment, no matter how heinous the command might be if this isn't God we're talking about?

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 118 by myth-one.com]

No bloodshed was ever intended.

God and Abraham knew that fact.

Abraham passed the test.

So what is the takeaway from this? What are readers to think? That one is to obey God, even if one knows, like you say Abraham knew, that God doesn't really want you to do it anyway? That one is to go through with the motions of the act, right up until the last moment, no matter how heinous the command might be if this isn't God we're talking about?

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way.

This is a non-answer to my question. According to you, "God's way" is to have his people obey his commands, even if it's something that ordinarily would be seen as barbaric and evil, commands such as sacrifice your son in a ritual...even if you somehow "know" that God doesn't want you to do it.

[marco]

No bloodshed was ever intended.

God and Abraham knew that fact.

Abraham passed the test.

You miss the point completely. Tempted or tested was never an issue; the command to kill Isaac is what is being examined. It is a wicked command and "no bloodshed ever intended" has nothing to do with that assessment.


If God knew and Abraham knew, then it was simply to terrorise Isaac. The tale is pointless if all three were involved in the joke.


Abraham bound Isaac and would have murdered him had it been God's will. That is all we can take from the story. Luckily - phew! - God stopped him. And that makes the macabre right, with the brutal father passing the test?


It is astonishing that sense and goodness and dutifulness can be extracted from the horrible instruction - test - temptation - joke - call it what you will.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 118 by myth-one.com]

No bloodshed was ever intended.

God and Abraham knew that fact.

Abraham passed the test.

So what is the takeaway from this? What are readers to think? That one is to obey God, even if one knows, like you say Abraham knew, that God doesn't really want you to do it anyway? That one is to go through with the motions of the act, right up until the last moment, no matter how heinous the command might be if this isn't God we're talking about?

The conclusion of each person's short human life on earth should be to learn that there is a better way to live, God's way.

This is a non-answer to my question. According to you, "God's way" is to have his people obey his commands, even if it's something that ordinarily would be seen as barbaric and evil, commands such as sacrifice your son in a ritual...even if you somehow "know" that God doesn't want you to do it.

Abraham told the others that he and the lad (Isaac) will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. That is, both will return.

And that occurred.

Abraham told Isaac that God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering -- and that occurred.

God prevented any harm to Isaac, and they sacrificed a ram provided by God instead of Isaac.

Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and his seed.

God tested Abraham's faith, Abraham was faithful without question, and that faith was rewarded.

Isaac's seed continue to play important roles in today's world.

=======================================

Also, there is an obvious dualism and prophecy at work here. Abraham was instructed to offer his only son as a sacrifice. Later, God would offer his only begotten son as a sacrifice for mankind's sins.

In both instances, God supplied the sacrificial lamb, a ram with his horns caught in the thicket and Jesus. Mankind could then gain eternal life through faith in Jesus.

That is, through believing in Jesus, mankind's reward is something in the future, which we cannot now see.

That reward is eternal life.

[myth-one.com]

Abraham bound Isaac and would have murdered him had it been God's will.

And that would never be God's will at this point as it was God's will to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and Isaac's seed!

And that had not as yet occurred.

Isaac was never in any danger that day!

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 123 by myth-one.com]

Abraham told the others that he and the lad (Isaac) will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. That is, both will return.

And that occurred.

Abraham told Isaac that God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering -- and that occurred.

God prevented any harm to Isaac, and they sacrificed a ram provided by God instead of Isaac.

Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and his seed.

God tested Abraham's faith, Abraham was faithful without question, and that faith was rewarded.

Isaac's seed continue to play important roles in today's world.

I am not arguing with you that all of this happened, as per the story.
I am asking you what the takeaway is, what is the lesson of the story?
According to you, the story is that Abraham and God both know there is not going to be a sacrifice of Isaac. God knows because he's God, he knows the past, present and future. Abraham knows because of promises God has made to him that require Isaac to live.
My question is...what is the lesson to be learned when reading about a father who is willing to go through with the motions of a religious ritualistic murder of his child, even including binding his child and taking out a sharp knife?
Is this something for readers to be proud of? To think is a good thing? To maybe...emulate?
Do you not see the dangers and what I call outright idiocy of including such a story in what is supposed to be a divinely inspired work? I know for a fact that there are going to be some humans who are going to want to emulate Abraham here. Your god would know this.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 123 by myth-one.com]

Abraham told the others that he and the lad (Isaac) will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. That is, both will return.

And that occurred.

Abraham told Isaac that God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering -- and that occurred.

God prevented any harm to Isaac, and they sacrificed a ram provided by God instead of Isaac.

Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and his seed.

God tested Abraham's faith, Abraham was faithful without question, and that faith was rewarded.

Isaac's seed continue to play important roles in today's world.

I am not arguing with you that all of this happened, as per the story.
I am asking you what the takeaway is, what is the lesson of the story?
According to you, the story is that Abraham and God both know there is not going to be a sacrifice of Isaac. God knows because he's God, he knows the past, present and future. Abraham knows because of promises God has made to him that require Isaac to live.
My question is...what is the lesson to be learned when reading about a father who is willing to go through with the motions of a religious ritualistic murder of his child, even including binding his child and taking out a sharp knife?
Is this something for readers to be proud of? To think is a good thing? To maybe...emulate?
Do you not see the dangers and what I call outright idiocy of including such a story in what is supposed to be a divinely inspired work? I know for a fact that there are going to be some humans who are going to want to emulate Abraham here. Your god would know this.

You say that Abraham knows that Isaac will not be killed that day because of promises God has made to him that require Isaac to live.

Isaac in all probability knows also, as his father has surely explained his future to him.

Everyone present knew it was a test of their faith in God.

And all passed the test.

===========================================

On the other hand, many filicides have been justified by false teachings which parents were taught in their churches.

None of these to my knowledge were committed by someone emulating Abraham.

Abraham killed no one.

[Tcg]

Abraham told the others that he and the lad (Isaac) will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. That is, both will return.

Yes, but this isn't the first time Abraham lied to avoid conflict.

Abraham told Isaac that God will provide the lamb for a burnt offering -- and that occurred.

But Abraham didn't know it would. He was simply lying to avoid conflict, once again.

God prevented any harm to Isaac, and they sacrificed a ram provided by God instead of Isaac.

Much to Abraham's surprise.

Abraham had faith that God would keep his promise to make an everlasting covenant with Isaac and his seed.

Abraham was a coward who didn't stand up for the life of his son. Why would he? He didn't stand up for the honor of his wife.

God tested Abraham's faith, Abraham was faithful without question, and that faith was rewarded.

He was rewarded for his willingness to murder his son.

Isaac's seed continue to play important roles in today's world.

So the story goes.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 126 by myth-one.com]

Isaac in all probability knows also, as his father has surely explained his future to him.

Try to picture how that conversation went down. Explain to me how it doesn't end up sounding ridiculous.
"So son...you know how God spoke to me and promised me that I will be a father to many nations, that my descendants through you will be as uncountable as the grains of sand on a beach? Well thing is...God spoke to me recently, and told me to offer you up for a burnt offering. So see, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to take you out to this remote mountain, it'll be just the two of us. I'm going to tie you to this altar, and I'm going to take out this really sharp knife and I'm going to make it look like I'm going to kill you.
But you know, and I know, and God knows, that I'm not actually going to kill you. What I want you to do is not struggle. No matter how tight I tie the ropes, no matter how sharp the knife looks...it's just an act. All of us here know I'm not going to kill you".

Imagine this playing out in the real world. Imagine you're a bystander, watching what's happening. Is there anything you could say that would convince me why a bystander shouldn't be calling the police and/or Child Protective Services?

It's always been a headscratcher to me, these Bible stories. Supposedly, they offer up great pearls of wisdom, some deep lesson on morals, values and ethics...yet if anyone in the real world were to try to emulate them...why they'd be insane to do so. If I saw a man looking like he's about to sacrifice a child in a ritual, I'd attempt to stop him, as I hope you would, myth. Or are you seriously going to tell me that you would not, on the off chance the man has heard from the quote unquote real God and is going through some sort of play acting so as to impart a theological lesson?

[brianbbs67]

I really think, that this is another cautionary tale, like Jepthah's later. Lesson is be prepared to give all to God. I wonder if it occured as rendered. This is all oral tradition passed down for many generations. However, oral tradition is, usually accurate, but not down to the details. We can only ponder at this point. The world was a lot different back then, as it was just 50 years ago. What passes muster now, didn't then and Vice versa.