Was it right for God to order Abraham to kill?

[marco]

In modern times we have people telling us that their God told them to kill. We think this absurd. But God told Abraham to murder Isaac. It doesn't matter what the outcome was, we have a precedent for God telling a human to murder another human and not, apparently, because the boy deserved to die, as did the suckling infants in another tale.

Is the command correct just because it is God's?

Was Abraham right in agreeing to commit murder?

[brianbbs67]

God knows evil too. "God repented from the evil He was about to do" because the king and people repented. So did the Lord. Just because you prefer to do good , does not mean you do not know how to do otherwise. It means you are not looking to do it as a first response.

Terrifyingly consistent! I can cope with baby Jesus meek and mild, with the Father hurting at man's ingratitude and his mercy being from generation to generation.... but a God who acts as a Samaritan one day and as a thug the next is the stuff of nightmares.

And yet this is exactly the picture we get from the tale of Abraham and Isaac.

Terrifying, yes, we all should be. The most important thing is the consistency. God never changes. Which is why we should trust Him , even when logic defies. Which Abraham did. He doesn't change, His rules don't change. That should be comfort as He is no longer a variable to you.

A constant comforts every equation.

[rikuoamero]

God knows evil too. "God repented from the evil He was about to do" because the king and people repented. So did the Lord. Just because you prefer to do good , does not mean you do not know how to do otherwise. It means you are not looking to do it as a first response.

Terrifyingly consistent! I can cope with baby Jesus meek and mild, with the Father hurting at man's ingratitude and his mercy being from generation to generation.... but a God who acts as a Samaritan one day and as a thug the next is the stuff of nightmares.

And yet this is exactly the picture we get from the tale of Abraham and Isaac.

Terrifying, yes, we all should be. The most important thing is the consistency. God never changes. Which is why we should trust Him , even when logic defies. Which Abraham did. He doesn't change, His rules don't change. That should be comfort as He is no longer a variable to you.

A constant comforts every equation.

If god's rules don't change...how come Christians don't have to get circumcised?

[marco]

Abraham, God, and probably even Isaac absolutely knew that Isaac would not be harmed that day!

And so did I after reading the story in the Bible.

That makes the story utterly silly, a play conducted for whose benefit? In any case the COMMAND - "Kill your son!" - is wicked, regardless of later theatricals.

Abraham and Isaac reach the top, build an altar, lay the wood, and Abraham binds Isaac and lays him on the wood on the altar. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Thus illustrating that he was protectively lying and he intends to sacrifice his son. This act, playful or not, is savage. His intention, like the command, is evil. The angelic intervention is irrelevant. And the actual blood sacrifice of a ram, provided by heaven, is an act of silly brutality, serving no purpose at all. Does God really relish the smell of blood in his nostrils? (Genesis 8:21 And when the Lord smelled the pleasing aroma ….. )

for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This humanises God to stupidity. "Now" has no meaning with God - he already knew how many hairs there were in Abraham's head and what the man was capable of doing. Were he a human, these words would make sense. As they are, they present a bumbling God.

This is a story of incredible faith! Abraham had faith that God would keep His promise.

Incredible savagery, for Abraham had no right to lift a knife to his son. It gives an excuse for all those who hear God's voice in their heads to carry out a wicked deed, now that it is seen God CAN ask for a wicked deed to be done - albeit as a kind of pantomime. But in modern tales no angels appear and God is great!


Your explanation that God plays silly games would not be the one most readers find.
The horror in the story is that God actually told a man to kill his son. What happened later is utterly irrelevant. The horror is in the actual command. All the perfumes of Arabia cannot sweeten it.

[marco]

The most important thing is the consistency. God never changes.

Is that so? try these passages then:


Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Which is why we should trust Him , even when logic defies. Which Abraham did. He doesn't change, His rules don't change. That should be comfort as He is no longer a variable to you.

When logic, goodness and conscience rebel against an order we trust them, else there is no point to our existence. People who bomb children in the belief that God desires this are defying logic and goodness. Yet you say that we should go ahead and do so. Down that road are burnt heretics, drowned witches and hanged homosexuals...... as well as bombers believing God is great. If goodness turns evil where are we? Luke 14 wisely says: "

"Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?"

I am not arguing against goodness but against wickedness.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 88 by marco]

I see it as a literary creation to discourage child sacrifice, saying think twice, maybe God doesn't really want you to sacrifice your child.

[brianbbs67]

The most important thing is the consistency. God never changes.

Is that so? try these passages then:


Genesis 6:6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Exodus 32:14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Which is why we should trust Him , even when logic defies. Which Abraham did. He doesn't change, His rules don't change. That should be comfort as He is no longer a variable to you.

When logic, goodness and conscience rebel against an order we trust them, else there is no point to our existence. People who bomb children in the belief that God desires this are defying logic and goodness. Yet you say that we should go ahead and do so. Down that road are burnt heretics, drowned witches and hanged homosexuals...... as well as bombers believing God is great. If goodness turns evil where are we? Luke 14 wisely says: "

"Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?"

I am not arguing against goodness but against wickedness.

I never said He doesn't change His mind. Jonah found this out. So did the people you reference from Exodus. His character and laws don't change. If people change, He changes His judgement and actions. He is the same today, tomorrow and evermore. He is always forgiving to the repentant.

God gives these responses:

Yes, no, maybe later and sorry I changed my mind because they repented. Or silence(which equates to you need to decide what is right, as He wants us to learn)

[brianbbs67]

God knows evil too. "God repented from the evil He was about to do" because the king and people repented. So did the Lord. Just because you prefer to do good , does not mean you do not know how to do otherwise. It means you are not looking to do it as a first response.

Terrifyingly consistent! I can cope with baby Jesus meek and mild, with the Father hurting at man's ingratitude and his mercy being from generation to generation.... but a God who acts as a Samaritan one day and as a thug the next is the stuff of nightmares.

And yet this is exactly the picture we get from the tale of Abraham and Isaac.

Terrifying, yes, we all should be. The most important thing is the consistency. God never changes. Which is why we should trust Him , even when logic defies. Which Abraham did. He doesn't change, His rules don't change. That should be comfort as He is no longer a variable to you.

A constant comforts every equation.

If god's rules don't change...how come Christians don't have to get circumcised?

In short, God didn't change this. The apostles did after Christ gave the great commission. (I am not sure if this is correct of them or not) The world of Judah and its God had been opened to the Goyim(gentiles, "out of covenant") One might ask the same of Sabbath worship/rest and the deitary and feast celebrations.

One could easily see it does, as sin is defined as transgression of the law. As Paul, correctly, stated, "without the law, there is no sin."

[marco]

I never said He doesn't change His mind. ..... He is the same today, tomorrow and evermore. He is always forgiving to the repentant.

Well we may guesss so. So God never changes but he can change his clothes, change his allegience, change his mind, change hsi favourites, change his plan... but God never changes.

God gives these responses:

Yes, no, maybe later and sorry I changed my mind because they repented.

A beautiful description of a changing God. Given these contradictions, how are we to honour him? In the OP we see that God has apparently changed his view about Abraham's son and about killing. Then later we see that God changes his mind about wanting to have human blood and is satisfied, instead, with having a ram slaughtered, pointlessly. So he has changed from wanting human sacrifice to wanting animal sacrifice. But God never changes, of course.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 97 by marco]

His character never changes. He , obviously, changed His mind several times. But, He remains the same being in His actions and thought. Thanks be to Him, He does withhold judgement when we repent. He wouldn't be the Good God, if He punishment after telling us to repent and we did repent.

God Himself tells us that He does not change (Malachi 3:6) and will always do what He says He will do (Numbers 23:19). Time does not affect God. He is still the same holy, amazing, kind God He was when He created the world. No matter how uncertain your life looks, you can trust in God’s constant love and faithfulness (Psalm 100:5).

[marco]

[Replying to post 88 by marco]

I see it as a literary creation to discourage child sacrifice, saying think twice, maybe God doesn't really want you to sacrifice your child.

Then by any human standard of judgment the command is silly and misleading. Ignore the outcome; the command: "Kill your son!" is wicked. NOTHING afterwards redeems this. For example God might say; "Only joking" or "Just testing."

If it is a literary device whose denouement indicates God does not want human sacrifice but animal offerings, it is flawed, and a deity who wants blood spilled for his enjoyment is unworthy of respect, except maybe by tough warriors. We have thrown away our spears in the twenty first century.