Question raised from tigger2 questions

[Wootah]

My understanding of what tigger2wrote is that there is no clear example of three beings ever being together in the Bible. This is used by tigger2 to argue that the Bible does not teach trinitarianism.

What I wonder is how that image would help teach trinitarianism and not simply teach polytheism.

Question: If the Bible clearly displayed three beings running around claiming to be God would the non-trinitarians simply being arguing for polytheism against the Trinitarians?

[JehovahsWitness]

However, does not John 1:18 state:
'No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.'

So there is the Father who bears the divine name Jehovah in the Hebrew Bible who no man has ever seen. Yet another Person also named Jehovah who John identifies as Jesus who makes the Father known to men like Abraham (Genesis 18:1 and John 1:18) as well as many others such as Hagar, Moses, Jacob, Manoah, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel etc as shown in Genesis 18:1 and John 1:18.

Have you read my post on this point?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 226#867226

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]

Have you read my post on this point?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 226#867226

I appreciate your attempt to try to harmonise those passages with JW doctrine but unfortunately I think it highlighted the problems these passages raise for your doctrine of God. In order to harmonise with your beliefs you require the assumption that the Bible uses the name Jehovah of a being who is neither God nor Jehovah. This of course contradicts pretty much the whole of the Bible's message, for example Isaiah 42:8 'I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else'.

You are half right that this person who is called Jehovah and speaks with men face-to-face is sent (i.e. an angel - since that's what the word means) from another person equally given the divine name Jehovah who no man may see face-to-face (John 1:18, Exodus 33).

But the sent-one (angel) of Jehovah, who yet also bears the divine name Jehovah, is clearly distinguished from other messengers and ambassadors of God. No prophet, despite being a sent messenger of God is referred to as Jehovah. Moreover, in Genesis 19 the two angels that go to Sodom are distinguished from the other sent one of Jehovah - who alone is referred to by the divine name Jehovah. Is the archangel Gabriel ever referred to as Jehovah? Surely if any angel were to receive that name wouldn't he?

Of course, this is consistent with John 1:18, Matthew 11:27 and Colossians 1:15 which speak of Jesus as the unique messenger of God distinct from all other messengers. Jesus speaks of himself endlessly as the one sent from Jehovah. The Son is an angel (sent one) of the Father, and that the will of the Father is that the Son may receive the same honor as the Father.
e.g. John 5:22-23

'Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.'

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Where did you get the idea that we believe Jesus is called (named) JEHOVAH?

I think you misread my post - as I never made such a claim - but forgive me if my grammar was not perfect.

We don't know who Abraham was speaking to, nor do we know what he was called ie what his given name was. We know Abraham addressed whoever it was as "Jehovah" but that could be because he was aware the individual REPRESENTED Jehovah. No human is in a position to say what the name of an angel is unless it has been revealed to him (something angels rarely did). Indeed with the exception of Gabriel I don't know of any times angels revealed their given names.

Abraham could therefore have called him Rumplestilkin if he wanted to but that wouldn't mean that was the individual's name.

Couple of responses:

1) If the only reference to Jehovah in this passage was of Abraham addressing the angel then there's an outside chance - he just got it wrong.

But :

a) throughout the passage the narrator refers to one of the three persons that appear to Abraham as Jehovah - so we'd also have to assume the writer of Genesis got it wrong too:

e.g.
18:1 Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day

18:22 Then the men left from there and went toward Sodʹom, but Jehovah remained with Abraham.

Genesis 19:1 makes clear that it was two angels that left - the third person that remained with Abraham was Jehovah

b) If Abraham mistakenly called this person Jehovah - do you think they might have corrected him?

When John tries to give glory to an angel that belongs only to Jehovah he is rebuked by the angel:

'At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.� Rev 19:20


2) I find it rather odd that you claim to be agnostic about the identity of this person that appears and talks with Abraham. I count that the NWT uses the word Jehovah 12 times in Chapter 18 alone - yet you claim we cannot know if this person is Jehovah. In addition, 19:1 goes out of its way to distinguish the two angels from this person who alone is referred to as Jehovah in this passage.

If there had been 12 references to 'some mysterious divine like being' appearing and talking to Abraham then your interpretation might be justified unfortunately it says very clearly Jehovah appeared and spoke to Abraham.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Where did you get the idea that we believe Jesus is called (named) JEHOVAH?

I think you misread my post - as I never made such a claim - but forgive me if my grammar was not perfect.

No problem at all, I probably misunderstood your point. .

Have a most excellent weekend,


JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

No problem at all, I probably misunderstood your point. .

Have a most excellent weekend,


JW

Thanks, hope you have a good weekend too.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 2 by tigger2]

So you read the Bible and you think apart from some visions of three beings together it has a Trinitarian viewpoint?

If not what do you mean that you would be a trinitarian and not a polytheist?

Tigger2 did you have a response to this?

So far you have said that if there were clear instances of three beings in the Bible that satisfied your criteria you would be a trinitarian.

So does that mean that when you read the Bible you think that apart from some visions of three beings together it has a Trinitarian viewpoint?

If not what do you mean that you would be a trinitarian and not a polytheist? What evidence do you have that you would not simply become the more obvious answer of a polytheist?

We can move on to your next challenge when we get this one nutted out.

[tigger2]

Here is what I wrote (post 2).

I certainly didn't say "that there is no clear example of three beings ever being together in the Bible." Three beings together being referred to as God. is clearly what I asked for.

If I found all 8 [EIGHT - A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H] challenges clearly pointing to a 3 person God (or even 6 of the 8), I believe I would have to believe in a trinity.

I thought my answer was clear enough that it needed no further explanation!


Every Bible student should know that Scripture tells us many times that God is only one. That eliminates God being polytheistic. It does not eliminate many others being called 'gods.' These include God's angels, Israeli kings, prophets, and judges.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 17 by tigger2]

I know you wrote that because I wrote that you said that you would be a trinitarian.

My follow up question is digging deeper. Are you saying there is evidence in the Bible for Trinitarianism?

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Not necessarily; and even if one was, then that still amounts to the one LORD. My understanding is the challenge was to find three.

Yes I agree Genesis 19 shows that the two other 'men' who appear to Abraham were angels (as opposed to the Angel of Jehovah who is specifically given the title Jehovah throughout the Hebrew Bible) therefore the other person must be Jehovah: 'Afterward, Jehovah appeared to him among the big trees of Mamʹre while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day.' (Genesis 18:1 NWT)

However, does not John 1:18 state:
'No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.'

So there is the Father who bears the divine name Jehovah in the Hebrew Bible who no man has ever seen. Yet another Person also named Jehovah who John identifies as Jesus who makes the Father known to men like Abraham (Genesis 18:1 and John 1:18) as well as many others such as Hagar, Moses, Jacob, Manoah, Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel etc as shown in Genesis 18:1 and John 1:18.

Do you think these Scriptures are supportive or contradictory to JW doctrine that Jesus is called Jehovah? Is anyone else called Jehovah in the Bible?

Well, I would stop you here and say as Christ did. "those that ate and drank, saw the Lord"

Abraham seems to know who he saw, also. Moses, Aaron, Arron's 2 sons and the 70 elders/leaders beheld the Lord and ate and drank.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 5 by tigger2]

Yes, but the chapter starts with the Lord Appeared to Abraham. So one must be the Lord.

Not necessarily; and even if one was, then that still amounts to the one LORD. My understanding is the challenge was to find three.

That's correct, one Lord. It(the example I gave) was the only I could think of involving 3 individuals in any way with the Lord as one of them. God is the one, there are no others.