The historical Jesus

[liamconnor]

This OP should perhaps be posted in the Apologetics forum; but I find that frequenters of that forum are less objective than those who frequent here.

One claim has come up again and again, to the effect that "Jesus was just a good, pious Jew, in the line of many good, pious Jews." Or, "Jesus was a prophet, a man of God, just as Elijah and Isaiah".


Q for D.

If this is true, then why did this "prophet" engender a body of literature such as the N.T.? Elijah did not. Isaiah did not. No one claimed Isaiah was "God's son" in a special way.

Historically, what made Jesus "special"?

[Elijah John]

This OP should perhaps be posted in the Apologetics forum; but I find that frequenters of that forum are less objective than those who frequent here.

One claim has come up again and again, to the effect that "Jesus was just a good, pious Jew, in the line of many good, pious Jews." Or, "Jesus was a prophet, a man of God, just as Elijah and Isaiah".


Q for D.

If this is true, then why did this "prophet" engender a body of literature such as the N.T.? Elijah did not. Isaiah did not. No one claimed Isaiah was "God's son" in a special way.

Historically, what made Jesus "special"?

The belief in his resurrection. His resurrection is not historical, or historically verifiable, but it really seems to be an historical fact that his followers beieved that he was resurrected.

But even if Jesus did in fact, rise from the dead, that in no way proves that he is "God" or that he died to "pay for" our sins. Those doctrines are theological interpretations of the event.

The way I see it is that God did the raising, (Acts) Jesus did not raise himself.(except in the Gospel of John) And he was rewarded this way as a vindication of his preaching, and his faithfulness unto death for righteousness sake.

But if that is the case, I have to admit, why Jesus? And why not John the Baptist as well? After all, John too was "faithful unto death".

Perhaps it is only because Jesus had his champion in Paul, and that Paul was so persuasive.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

This OP should perhaps be posted in the Apologetics forum; but I find that frequenters of that forum are less objective than those who frequent here.

Hmm...what does it say in the gudelines for this subforum?
In this subforum the canon of the Bible is considered authoritative with respect to the historical consensus of the canon's content.
So unless you've got a novel new meaning for the word 'objective', I have to call out that statement from you as being...hmm...what euphemism could I use here?

If this is true, then why did this "prophet" engender a body of literature such as the N.T.? Elijah did not. Isaiah did not. No one claimed Isaiah was "God's son" in a special way.

Historically, what made Jesus "special"?

There's a lot of literature written about the Buddha. About Vishnu. About Muhammed. Certainly no-one is claiming Muhammed to be God's son, although he is described as being the perfect man, who did no sin (sound familiar?).
Historically, what made Muhammed special?

Liam, are you inferring that a large body of literature written about a human somehow validates the magical claims made about that human, by virtue of the sheer size of that volume?

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]

His disciples those who knew him and loved him made him famous, they made something out of his life death and resurrection.

[Divine Insight]

Historically, what made Jesus "special"?

I totally agree with Dio9, people who insisted on perpetuating rumors and made "special claims" about him is what made him "special".

I suspect the following happened.

1. The idea that a "messiah" was coming was in the "air". Clearly this was bring preached before the appearance of any Jesus. So that part was already in place.

2. There were actually quite a few Jews preaching of the need for salvation and that the end was nigh. Apparently this is just what many of them believed.

3. Jesus apparently made quite a spectacle of himself arguing with the religious authorities and sitting around publicly renouncing them as being evil sinners who deserved certain damnation.

4. Jesus was also apparently not afraid to go into the Temple and challenge the religious authorities head-on. In fact, isn't that event what led up to his crucifixion?

5. Anytime a charismatic leader is crucified by authoritarians, that's always going to incite an even greater support for the "underdog" which is precisely what Jesus would have been in this situation.

6. Finally, all that was needed were rumors that Jesus had risen from his grave and had supposedly defeated the authoritarians who crucified him.

It was those rumors that made Jesus "special" along with all the other rumors that Jesus had supposedly done all manner of "special miracles" as well.

Add to this the fabricated stories that he was "born of a virgin" and that the authors who wrote about him proclaimed him to be either the "Son of God" or an incarnation of God himself.

Let's not forget to include the absolutely outrageous claims of these authors that God himself had spoken from the clouds to proclaim that Jesus was indeed his Son.

And by the time we get to the writings of John the religion becomes extremely threatening to anyone who dares to disbelieve it. For they will surely be condemned for not believing that Jesus was the Son of God.

And let's not forget what's happening along side all of this. Ruthless authoritarians a are sending their soldiers around to condemn and physically burn down and potentially kill any "heathens" who are preaching otherwise.

In fact, the religion quickly comes to the point where to so much as question the "Gospel Truth" of these doctrines is considered to be blaspheme.

If you like history so much look back over history and you can see how Christianity was a very nasty religion when it came to tolerating non-believers. Even in Isaac Newton's day it wasn't wise to suggest that anything about the religion might not be true. Isaac Newton didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, but he didn't dare make that conclusion public in his day.

Our freedom of religion today is actually very modern thing. You can challenge Christianity today without being threatened with being burned alive at a stake or something equally horrible. But it wasn't always like that.

So the reason Jesus is so "special" is because the religious authorities of this religion insisted upon it. Back in the early days, if you publicly renounced this religion you could literally be beheaded.

That's what makes this religion so "special".

The same thing was happening with Islam. That's why Islam is also so "special". Dare to renounce it in public and you could be stoned to death.

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 2 by Elijah John]

"But even if Jesus did in fact, rise from the dead, that in no way proves that he is "God" "

Yes, that is one item of Christian apologetics that just needs to be dropped. Nowhere does the NT invoke Jesus's resurrection as proof that he was "God". Quite the contrary, the most frequent description is that God raised Jesus up. Jesus was the passive recipient of God's miraculous action - and therefore could not himself be God.

In John, Jesus says that he lays down his life and takes it up again, which might mean that he will rise by his own power just as he is going to die by his own power, but that would be an exegetical mistake. John's christology insists that Jesus can only act according to the Father, whose word he has heard and whose will he obeys. If Jesus in John takes up his life again, it is only because the Father's approval and will make it so.

[Jack]

Jesus is priest prophet and king, he is also God by virtue of nature, he is God's son. The Bible testifies that he is God.

[William]

There are other gospels written which are not included in the bible but make claims about Jesus.

My own impressions are that the gist of the message when stripped of all the contentious, is that we are all Children of GOD.

The contentious is evident in the message which seeks to have us focus on things which lead us away from that notion. Subtly or otherwise.

Problematic to that is the contentious becomes the focus for those who haven't yet understood the significance of the idea that 'We are all Children of GOD" and in that, those who haven't come to that understanding yet, is because they are distracted by the contentious, and behave with one another as if they were NOT Children of GOD.

[font=Comic Sans MS]This is the feeling that you should seek to preserve in the face of life’s distractions. This is the revelation of my heart to your heart. Live in clarity. Live in purpose. Live in the knowledge that you are in me and I am in you, and that there is no place separate from our heart.[/font]~ Excerpt from Chamber 23—One of three written elements from the body of work known as the WingMakers, ascribed to First Source.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]


https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... 6-october/

"As a child, I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of Jesus the Nazarene." -


Albert Einstein, German-born scientist

The picture and teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth are like no other. Arguably the most influencial figure in human history, Jesus' words and actions cannot be compared to any of the other biblical figures.

• No other biblical prophet performed as many miracles as Jesus . Although the gospels present detailed accounts of around 30 miracles, the writers also include comments that he cured crowds at a time possibly dozens if not hundreds. Certainly there are at least two occassions when he fed thousands. So as a miracle worker Jesus was on a par with no other Prophet in the bible including Moses or Elijah, two the nations most respected miracle working Prophets .
  
  No other biblical Prophet claimed to be the promised Jewish Messiah. As such none of them present any progress in terms of God's purpose. The bible Prophets were mainly sent to admonish the Israelites to return to the law transmitted by Moses. Although David and Daniel recorded divine revelation only Jesus claimed to be a part of said Revelations. In short the other Prophets announced God's purpose Jesus, as the Messiah claimed to BE God's purpose.
  
  Jesus teaching was revolutionary. The body of words attributed to Jesus have a profound effect on people. The bible does not contain anything comparable. Although King David's songs may amount to as many words than are attributed to Jesus in the gospels, while beautiful and deeply moving, the Psalms do not compare to the precise and often detailed illustrations and instructions contained in the gospels. Jesus teaching was authorative, simple, profound and life changing. He introduced notions of resurrection to spirit life, of a second coming to judge both Jew and gentiles of a future heavenly govenment that will vindicate God's universal sovereignty and of a redemptive sacrifice that would buy back all humanity. Jesus teachings clarified and solidified the mysteries of the Hebrew bible and bought them all into a sharp focus in a way no other Prophet before or since even comes close to doing.
  
  Jesus had disciples who he sent to evangelize to the nations. In the biblical record this made Jesus unique. Prophets themselves were "sent" and some evidently lead communities that taught the people, but Jesus program of training and senting his disciples with a global message to all people of the earth implied something much MUCH larger than any Prophet that came before him.

The bible contains the profile and stories of many exceptional men and women, but they all pale into insignificance compared to that of Jesus of Nazareth, and many individuals past and present believe these and other details make Jesus not just *a* prophet... but THE PROPHET.


JW


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[William]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

None of these contentious things - either taken on their own or combined - make it a fact that all these contentious things - either taken on their own or combined - show the stories are not fabricated or that the character was an actual historical persona whom actually did the things these stories proclaim or is whom the stories claim him to be.

As post #8 declares, the contentious is besides the point and those who are distracted by the contentious have not got the gist of what this character in this story was centrally speaking to, and so remain on their various chosen 'steps' (positions) unable through being unwilling to observe the unacquainted, to venture any further.