What are people to do?

[Waterfall]

I think it is very strange that people have to wait forever to be resurrected.

Has this idea not a time limit? 1000 year? 10.000 year? 100.000 year? 1.000.000 year?

If there is no time limit then people could wait forever, right?

Would God not demand a time limit (or date) if someone were to say things like that?

When should people abandon this idea?

Lets say Satan tells Jesus that he will destroy him and Jesus respond by saying...very well...can you give me a date? When will you destroy me? Someday? Thats like forever and never? How long time should I wait for this destruction or should I say...when things do not happen then we know it was not true, so can you give me a date - 2040?

How can we tell truth from lie whitout a date?

Maybe it has nothing to do whit time...but something else.

When this happens, then...

But then we would ask about that...what has to happen? Will it happen when everybody is dead (God will raise mankind from the dead?)? Then there could go a very long time, so...

What are your thoughts about this idea?

[shnarkle]

We were attempting to look into the meaning of the myth. Is there some reason why we need to be repeatedly reminded that we're looking at a myth? Perhaps you might enlighten us all as to why you think this is something we're all forgetting here?

I find it amusing that I am being addressed by a plurality of posters.

When I say, "we" I am referring to the person I was engaged in discussion with before you rudely interrupted with your pointlessly condescending remarks, which served no purpose other than to derail the topic.

I now see why the other party chose to simply ignore bothering to respond any further. I'll follow their example from now on.

[brianbbs67]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

[marco]

When I say, "we" I am referring to the person I was engaged in discussion with before you rudely interrupted with your pointlessly condescending remarks, which served no purpose other than to derail the topic.

The topic is about people having to wait rather a long time to get up from the grave. I didn't interrupt, and cerainly not rudely, unless you believe it is fine to have a private discourse free from the comments of other posters.

It is not clear that Adam and Eve should have been in the conversation but my point was that if we are to buld theories for theology we should recall that we would be building them on a fiction if we involve Adam. This is pertinent to discussing our need to wait before our resurrections; for we might be basing the idea on a poetic depiction of what never was.

In any event it is probably best to speak on one's own behalf and not assume we speak for others. I can understand that Adam might have seen my remarks as a slight but I cannot see any condescension in them at all.
Noli iudicare ne iudiceris as poor Julius Caesar might have said.

[shnarkle]

I didn't interrupt, and cerainly not rudely,

Coming from someone who doesn't know any better, I might agree; but pointing out that what we're (I and the other person I was enjoying this discussion with) discussing is nonsense and irrelevant is most definitely rude, especially given that at least one party in the discussion may have deeply held beliefs concerning these stories. I don't see it as anything more than myth, but I certainly don't need someone pointing out the obvious as if it was necessary in the first place. Your sophomoric comments are at the very least tediously boring, and the most inspirational ideas your posts elicit are visions of evacuating my cranial vault with double ought buck.

unless you believe it is fine to have a private discourse free from the comments of other posters.

I'm not posting my beliefs here, and I don't need you projecting asinine beliefs onto me either. I was under the impression that telling someone that they're not a Christian was unacceptable. Am I to understand that this doesn't apply to accusing others that they're not atheists, agnostics, or skeptics? Does an atheist, agnostic, or skeptic need to be reminded that these are myths??? Does a Christian or theist need or even want to be told this? Other than for its inflammatory effect, I fail to see what purpose it serves in advancing the discussion.

It is not clear that Adam and Eve should have been in the conversation but my point was that if we are to buld theories for theology

While it is true that this topic is in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum, I was originally addressing the symbolism of this myth. I wasn't building a theory for theology, and we both know the other party to this discussion wasn't about to entertain pot shots from the peanut gallery.

we should recall that we would be building them on a fiction if we involve Adam.

Speak for yourself. These are your assumptions, not mine.

This is pertinent to discussing our need to wait before our resurrections;

Again, this is only pertinent to your perceived need to wait for your resurrection. I'm not waiting for a resurrection as I can see the symbolism doesn't require me to wait. It is simply informing me to refrain from identifying with my body, and mediating reality through the intellect. You would know this if you were comprehending the context rather than reading your own prefabricated ideas into our posts.

for we might be basing the idea on a poetic depiction of what never was.

We? Perhaps you might try speaking for yourself. You might also note that your ideas are torturously slow in advancing the discussion for even children in some fundie Vacation Bible School.

In any event it is probably best to speak on one's own behalf and not assume we speak for others.

Ya think??? One can only hope, or log off and do something more interesting like meditating on the Void.

I can understand that Adam might have seen my remarks as a slight but I cannot see any condescension in them at all.
Noli iudicare ne iudiceris as poor Julius Caesar might have said.

Now you're attributing the sayings of fictional characters to historical ones? This is a debate group, we were debating the merits of our respective interpretations of, and use of figurative speech verses a literal interpretation of this particular myth when you decided that we needed to be reminded that we were discussing a myth. I don't know how offended the other person may have been, but i got the impression that his beliefs were something he identified with.

This has been quite the hot button issue for the last few decades with identity politics which is why I'm amazed that someone more than 10 years old would make such a statement. It's effectively no different than telling a homosexual that their marriage is invalid, or a transgendered person that they're gender preference will not be recognized. It's blatantly insulting, and pointlessly unnecessary. It isn't going to change their beliefs and I don't need someone pointing out the obvious every time i engage in a discussion on the subject. The only thing more insulting is the fact that you're a moderator who should know better, and I can't click the "ignore" button. No matter as I don't actually need a button to click to do just that. You seem to have a talent or stifling discussion. Ay gar eu piptusin oi dios kuboi

[Waterfall]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

I understand your thinking but that is not how the story goes...there was no people before Adam and Eve. Not according to the story.

The story tells us this:

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Adam named his wife Eve [Life] because she became the mother of every living person.

But maybe Eve means women? Or mother? The women became mother...

[marco]

I'm not posting my beliefs here, and I don't need you projecting asinine beliefs onto me either. I was under the impression that telling someone that they're not a Christian was unacceptable.

You are extrapolating far beyond what civility allows, so let us close this debate in which you seem to have made major misunderstandings. My post was in answer to what you had written and did not address anyone else's post or beliefs. I have never in my life told anyone they are not a Christian; it's none of my business.



In the portion of my post:

"Not that it matters much what interpretation we take from the nonsense.
how they came to know of their nakedness. Enlightenment came after their unenlightened indulgence."


you may have noticed that the central part is just stuck there with no grammatical connection. I simply omitted to erase what I had previously written. That seems to have contributed to your wrong interpretation, so perhaps I should have simply erased the eight misplaced words and avoided some invective.

It's always best to comment on the argument rather than psychoanalyse the poster. And be prepared for others to present an opposing view, even if one strongly disagrees. Let's hope you continue to enjoy your discussions.

[ttruscott]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

I understand your thinking but that is not how the story goes...there was no people before Adam and Eve. Not according to the story. ...

I wrote to a group of folk I know about this topic and got an answer from Fred:

I wrote:
I am bothered not knowing how to work out exponent growth patterns. To use a simple population pattern, no twins, no deaths, let’s consider one birth a year by one person for 13 years when the oldest child also starts having children. All children start having children at 13 years old and keep having children every year. How many people are there in 125 years?

How is this for something new?

Fred answered:
Yeehaw. Branching processes.

Let’s do the simplest case we can first, which we can arrive at because in the case you have here, everything is deterministic and happens in 13 year increments, so you can take one generation to be 13 years and work only in terms of generations. In generation 0, there is 1 person. Each person in the previous generation produced 13 people in the next generation, plus themselves, so, notating the number of people in generation i as N_i,

N_i = 14 * N_{i-1}

with N_0 = 1, the solution to this is N_i = 14^i.

125 years is between 9 and 10 generations, so there are between 20 billion and 289 billion people in this model.

One of our problems with this story is that we do not know how old these two were when they had their fight.

Because they are mentioned without any other child being mentioned it is assumed they are the only children and the first children. BUT that is not proven in the text...Gensesis 4 is about Cain and Abel, not anyone else, so no one else is mentioned until their story is over. But if Adam and Eve had a child each year and these children started to have their own children at age 15 or so, in a very short time (out of a 900 year lifespan that is) the exponential increase would be huge. Seth was born in Adam's 135 year to replace the (newly?) killed Abel.

So, if Cain and Abel were born during Adam and Eve's 100 year on earth, it might have had a very large population indeed by that time.

Also it is not proven by the text that these two were just kids when the fight happened. All the cutsie little pictures in your children's bible may be bogus as, well, completely bogus. Figments of the imagination and orthodox bias. This was not just a kid's mistake and childish anger; it was religious war.

Cain was trying to surplant the religion of the coats of skins for righteousness instituted by GOD for Adam and Eve with his first fruits fertility / weather cult of the Baals and Asherah (groves).

NOW the really interesting thing is that GOD not only let Cain go but gave him a mark to save his life from any Jehovah worshippers he might meet. This makes it obvious that GOD intended to use slayers of HIS faithful (ie Cain) to the advantage of HIS elect and HIS church.

I do wonder what the part of his curse about being "driven from the ground" might mean...although I do think that the mark of Cain is false religion, ungodly piety and idolatry.

[Waterfall]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

I understand your thinking but that is not how the story goes...there was no people before Adam and Eve. Not according to the story. ...

I wrote to a group of folk I know about this topic and got an answer from Fred:

I wrote:
I am bothered not knowing how to work out exponent growth patterns. To use a simple population pattern, no twins, no deaths, let’s consider one birth a year by one person for 13 years when the oldest child also starts having children. All children start having children at 13 years old and keep having children every year. How many people are there in 125 years?

How is this for something new?

Fred answered:
Yeehaw. Branching processes.

Let’s do the simplest case we can first, which we can arrive at because in the case you have here, everything is deterministic and happens in 13 year increments, so you can take one generation to be 13 years and work only in terms of generations. In generation 0, there is 1 person. Each person in the previous generation produced 13 people in the next generation, plus themselves, so, notating the number of people in generation i as N_i,

N_i = 14 * N_{i-1}

with N_0 = 1, the solution to this is N_i = 14^i.

125 years is between 9 and 10 generations, so there are between 20 billion and 289 billion people in this model.

One of our problems with this story is that we do not know how old these two were when they had their fight.

Because they are mentioned without any other child being mentioned it is assumed they are the only children and the first children. BUT that is not proven in the text...Gensesis 4 is about Cain and Abel, not anyone else, so no one else is mentioned until their story is over. But if Adam and Eve had a child each year and these children started to have their own children at age 15 or so, in a very short time (out of a 900 year lifespan that is) the exponential increase would be huge. Seth was born in Adam's 135 year to replace the (newly?) killed Abel.

So, if Cain and Abel were born during Adam and Eve's 100 year on earth, it might have had a very large population indeed by that time.

Also it is not proven by the text that these two were just kids when the fight happened. All the cutsie little pictures in your children's bible may be bogus as, well, completely bogus. Figments of the imagination and orthodox bias. This was not just a kid's mistake and childish anger; it was religious war.

Cain was trying to surplant the religion of the coats of skins for righteousness instituted by GOD for Adam and Eve with his first fruits fertility / weather cult of the Baals and Asherah (groves).

NOW the really interesting thing is that GOD not only let Cain go but gave him a mark to save his life from any Jehovah worshippers he might meet. This makes it obvious that GOD intended to use slayers of HIS faithful (ie Cain) to the advantage of HIS elect and HIS church.

I do wonder what the part of his curse about being "driven from the ground" might mean...although I do think that the mark of Cain is false religion, ungodly piety and idolatry.

We do not have an commentary from the author/authors. But we have 6000 years. And we know people can come up with a past. They problely were inspired by many stories. How many humans was there on earth 10.000 years ago? Maybe there was 5 million?

https://www.prb.org/howmanypeoplehaveeverlivedonearth/

[brianbbs67]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

I understand your thinking but that is not how the story goes...there was no people before Adam and Eve. Not according to the story.

The story tells us this:

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Adam named his wife Eve [Life] because she became the mother of every living person.

But maybe Eve means women? Or mother? The women became mother...

There are the living and everyone else. So, the A and E may have occurred in a vacuum . And the rest at the same time , in the world. The non canonical Apocalypse of Peter seem to indicate most are filler in this world. Christ started the grafting to the tree of life of the others to replace the chosen who reject the Lord. God foretold it it the Ot.

[shnarkle]

I have determined that Adam and Eve were a separate experiment from the rest of creation. There are at least 2 creations of people in Genesis. How did Cain obtain a wife? Or worry that others(mark of Cain) would kill him?

I understand your thinking but that is not how the story goes...there was no people before Adam and Eve. Not according to the story.

The story tells us this:

And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all the living.

Adam named his wife Eve [Life] because she became the mother of every living person.

But maybe Eve means women? Or mother? The women became mother...

There are the living and everyone else. So, the A and E may have occurred in a vacuum . And the rest at the same time , in the world. The non canonical Apocalypse of Peter seem to indicate most are filler in this world. Christ started the grafting to the tree of life of the others to replace the chosen who reject the Lord. God foretold it it the Ot.

I don't recall where i read this, but I read about something similar where it was claimed that Adam and Eve were the first to communicate or have a relationship with God. They were the only ones who had access to eternal life. The biblical narratives are concerned only with those in that same line of descent as well as only those who are in the line of ascent back to eternal life.