Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John

[Elijah John]

Where, except perhaps in the Gospel of John did Jesus teach anything that even comes close to "Jesus worship"?

Where, in the Synoptics did Jesus ever say anything like "The Father is glorified in the Son"?

Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?

If the latter, why do so many modern Christians worship Jesus?

Does the Jesus-worshiper even care at all what Jesus most probably actually taught on this essential matter?

[steveb1]

[Replying to post 20 by jgh7]

Your examples continue to fail to prove that the "worship" addressed to Jesus is the same kind of worship directed to God.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

Or to place his own name above the name of the Father?

Yet that is what happens in the letters of Paul, the book of acts and in Churches every day. (Jesus, not Jehovah, is considered the "name above all names" by Paul and others.)

Paul says he is given a name above all names, not the name. Who gave him this name? That should answer that.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

Or to place his own name above the name of the Father?

Yet that is what happens in the letters of Paul, the book of acts and in Churches every day. (Jesus, not Jehovah, is considered the "name above all names" by Paul and others.)

Paul says he is given a name above all names, not the name. Who gave him this name? That should answer that.

Paul says that God did. But does that make it so? Is Paul infallible? Is Paul the final Word on what God says, or is Jesus? When Paul preaches some doctrine or principle that contradicts previous Scriptural principle, should he be taken seriously in that case? It is established in principle (all throughout the Psalms, the Hebrew Bible and the LORD's prayer) that the name of God is the name above all names. The name of the LORD. (YHVH).

Did Jesus claim that God put the name of Jesus above all names? Should Paul and his teachings supercede Jesus?

Seems to me that the only name that Jesus hallowed was the name of the Father, not the name of Jesus.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

Yes, certainly it's a case of either a human sacrifice, or an Odin-like sacrifice of the god to himself (in Christianity's case for the forgiveness of sins, which however was already a facet of Judaism and thus unnecessary in any case).

Agreed that I should have written that "some" - not "most" - Christians don't understand Jesus's own Christology. Some in the emergent, progressive churches do, as do the (imo, unfortunately fundamentalistic) "biblical Unitarians" like Sir Anthony Buzzard and some others.

Still … I'm enough of a quasi-literalist (even though I remain interested in the Christ Myth stuff) to want to get my hands on some kind of time travel technology (say, like Arthur C. Clarke's "dial-up" system in Childhood's End) and be a fly on the wall of the intertestamental period and hope to see just what did or didn't happen in those days...

That would be awesome.

[onewithhim]

I don't think Jesus ever taught people to specifically worship him, but he never rebuked those who worshipped him. I'll abide by the rules of ignoring a giant chunk of the Holy Book as is common practice for your topics. The Gospel of John takes a backseat for this thread.

Matthew 2:11 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 14:33 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Then those who were in the boat [a]came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God.�

Matthew 28:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Women Worship the Risen Lord
9 And [a]as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!� So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him.

Matthew 28:17 New King James Version (NKJV)
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted.

Luke 24:52 New King James Version (NKJV)
52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

-----

I believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all to be worshipped and revered. But I believe prayer and ultimate reverance goes to the Father. I don't judge those who believe Jesus to be God. I myself believe it, maybe not in the same way others do. I believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all on the level of God, and the only beings on the level of God. They are the only beings of Godly essence, and they are near infinitely holier than even the holiest of angels. I do believe that the Son obeys the Father, not the other way around. So you could consider the Father to be above the Son in that regard. But the three are still Godly in level, and are the only Godly beings.

Jesus tells people of his true nature here:

Matthew 22:41-45
Jesus: How Can David Call His Descendant Lord?
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 saying, “What do you think about the Christ? Whose Son is He?�
They said to Him, “The Son of David.�
43 He said to them, “How then does David in the Spirit call Him ‘Lord,’ saying:
44
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool� ’?
45 If David then calls Him ‘Lord,’ how is He his Son?� 46 And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor from that day on did anyone dare question Him anymore.

"Worship" is translated from a word (proskyneo) that has varying shades of meaning. It is incumbent on the setting to attest to what is meant by "worship." In Scripture there are occasions where persons bowed down to another person (of more authority) and are said to have "worshiped" this person of authority. However, this "worship" was simply a gesture of respect, as in the account of a man that owed another man a lot of money and asked the man for patience and mercy.

"The servant therefore fell down and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all." (Matthew 18:26, KJV)

Was the servant worshipping the other man as God? No, he was merely showing the man respect. The very same word that is translated as "worship" in the KJV and other versions is rendered as "did homage" or "prostrated himself" or "did obeisance," as illustrated in the following.

"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him [the man to which he owed money], saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything." (New American Standard Bible)

"At that the servant fell down and did him homage...." (New American Bible)

"Therefore the slave fell down and began to do obeisance to him...." (New World Translation)


So we can see that the SAME word that is translated as "worship" is also translated as an act of respect that doesn't mean God is being worshiped. So "worship" need not mean the exclusive devotion we give to God Almighty.

When Jesus was "worshiped," he was given a sign of great respect. He wasn't being worshiped as God. He accepted this respect, or, worship, because he was NOT being worshiped as God.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 7 by jgh7]

Points well taken that some in the synoptics worshiped Jesus, at various stages in the story.

But the most that can be really concluded from those examples is that "Jesus" accepted worship.

But did he? How can a baby accept or reject worship?

Nonetheless, can you provide any examples where Jesus taught people to worship him?

Or to place his own name above the name of the Father?

Yet that is what happens in the letters of Paul, the book of acts and in Churches every day. (Jesus, not Jehovah, is considered the "name above all names" by Paul and others.)

The Father's name is not usurped by Paul or the book of Acts to replace its authority with that of Jesus'. Jehovah's name and position is always honored by those writers.

The churches of Christendom to indeed place Jesus above the Father, but they don't teach what the Bible says anyway.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

Please see my post #25.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 13 by steveb1]

Interesting ideas. However if Jesus was an angel, even the highest archangel, he still would have rebuked those who worshipped him. An angel tells John not to worship him in Revelations:

Revelation 19:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.�

I think you make the best case that can be made, drawing on Scripture. But notice, the angel did not say "worship Jesus", the angel said "Worship God!.

Did the angel equate Jesus with God?

Of course not. Please see my post #25.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 16 by Elijah John]

I don't think that the verse "every knee shall bow" means to Jesus. It says that every knee shall bow in the name of Jesus. That means that he is inherently responsible, because of what he did for mankind, for mankind to recognize the Father as God and worship the Father as such. Everything Jesus did was to glorify his Father, and what he did in the name of his Father bore witness about who he was in relation to the Father. He is said to be the middle-man between mankind and the Father, never usurping the Father's position.

"Jesus answered them, '...The works that I am doing in the name of my Father, these bear witness about me.'" (John 10:25)

"There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all." (I Timothy 2:5,6)


Jesus wanted all glory to go to his Father, and of course Paul and the others knew that. They all viewed Jesus as the subordinate Son, who desired to elevate his Father above all in the minds of people. He said, "I am not seeking glory for myself" (John 8:50), and "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifies me." (vs.54)

Why would Jesus ever accept worship as God when everything he said pointed to his Father as the Most High, the one true God? Why would he accept worship as God when he knew from the beginning that he would some day "hand back the Kingdom to his God and Father?" (I Corinthians 15:24)

[FWI]

Did Jesus teach Jesus-worship, or the worship of the Father?

The Son of God actually taught both concepts. But, firstly we need to understand the answer to a question, which jgh7 asked in post 11: "What is the definition, (we should use for the Hebrew and Greek understanding) of "worship" here?

The bible implies that the word "worship" is defined as: bowing down and/or a token of reverence. Hence, to worship someone, we must have a profound awe for the individual and show respect and often love to those being worshipped.

So did the Son of God teach that he should be respected and loved? Yes!

Matthew 7 (respect) and John 13 (love)

Also, did the Son of God teach that we should respect and love the Father? Yes, this is a no-brainer… (Matthew 6:24, Mark 12:28-34, Luke 10:25-28 and John 4:19-26)