Can we accept Romans 13;1-7 TO Justify submission today?

[dio9]

Romans 13:1-7
[A Christian’s Duties to the State ] ?

OMG, can this exhortation by Paul really be used today to justify governing authorities ? Can an Evangelical honestly say God put the governing authority we have today in place ? How can the AG suggest his authority is put in place by God, After having seen so much In the 20th century a Hitler , a Mao, a Stalin, a Pal Pot and lesser devils.
Is there anyone who can argue this governing authority we have today is in place instituted by God , and anyone who resists is opposing God's command?

Everyone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing God’s command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. .

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

You're aware that the first Christians were beaten to death, gang-raped, burned alive, and put in arenas to be eaten alive by animals for entertainment under the governing authorities?

I understand your complaints, but they have always existed. There is nothing extra special today that was not so different back then.

I don't fully understand the teaching of submission to authorities beyond a very basic level. But if it applied back then with the horrors the first Christians went through, it still applies today.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

ROMANS 13:1


Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

The Jehovah's Witness interpretation of the above is that it does not mean God literally directs and control each authority but that he permits them to exist and hold a relative authority at the present time. In other words they occupy their positions of power because God has permitted them to do so, not that they are God ordained and/or directed or that they act on his behalf.


JW

[dio9]

[Replying to post 2 by jgh7]

how can Paul have advised fellow Christians to submit to a madman like Nero? What was he thinking? Paul's background was Jewish and they were not about to submit to Roman authorities were , they resisted to death. And the idea that the Roman governor was appointed or tolerated by God was blasphemy. The American republic is not based on submission to a traditional Christian King George either. Our separation of Church and state doctrine rejects it too. We are a secular state. Whose members are free to worship God but not under the authority of any one religious creed in Paul's idiosyncrasy.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

ROMANS 13:1


Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

The Jehovah's Witness interpretation of the above is that it does not mean God literally directs and control each authority but that he permits them to exist and hold a relative authority at the present time. In other words they occupy their positions of power because God has permitted them to do so, not that they are God ordained and/or directed or that they act on his behalf.


JW

Along with this comment, in Luke 21:24 Jesus speaks of 'the appointed time of the nations'. God has given the nations a set time to govern. We are in that last days of that appointed time and soon God's Son is going to remove these governments from power. Yet, that means Romans 13 is inspired by God and thus legally recognized by God.

That being said, there are certainly times when government rule steps on God's laws. They do this all the time and in many countries. Yet the Bible gives only one way to try and correct these wrongs. It is not through politics, protest, seeking media backing, or physical fighting. It is only by going through the already established judicial system to have the law changed.

Them using Romans 13 is doesn't not mean they have the legal right to do whatever they want though. 2000 years ago, the government wanted Peter and his associates to stop preaching about Jesus. In Acts 5:29 Peter said to the Jewish lawmakers, 'we must obey God's laws rather than man's.' So Romans 13 doesn't give governments the right to makes laws that contradict God's laws. Though Jehovah may allow it for now, the day is coming when His patience will be used up when it comes to Earth's governments trampling on His laws. That is why, while it seems tempting to try and join political movements, ultimately a true follower of Jesus doesn't want to be found in an institution that he is going to destroy.

[JehovahsWitness]

how can Paul have advised fellow Christians to submit to a madman like Nero?

My view is that God (through Paul) asks us to submit to governmental authorities as long as doing so does not compromise Christian law and principle. This is based not on the quality of the lifestyle of the individual ruler/President or Governor concerned, nor indeed for the quality of their decisions but because if conforms to his present will and purpose; namely to allow human independent rulership and governments for a set period of time.

Very soon that period will come to an end, God will completely destroy all human governments, the American government, the British government, communist, democratic, monarchies... all governments will be completely destroyed and permanently eliminated, and Jesus himself will rule.

In the meantime governments and rulerships fulfill a needed purpose and Christians are asked to render relative submission to them whether we agree with their policies or not. The Christian message, incomprehensible perhaps to those without spirituality, is that any suffering believers are submitted to because of obeying Jesus' commands to "give Cesars things to Cesar" (meaning to obey* the demands of ruling authorities - not to resist or try and assassinate Cesar, even if his name is "Nero" or "Tiberius" and he happens to be debauched, immoral or stark raving mad) will be rewarded when the Kingdom comes!

* As long as this doesn't mean a violation of Christian law or principle

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS





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[bluethread]

how can Paul have advised fellow Christians to submit to a madman like Nero?

My view is that God (through Paul) asks us to submit to governmental authorities as long as doing so does not compromise .

I agree with the principle, because Paul did not stop preaching after he was told not to by the authorities. The problem I see is with how many see Christian law and principle. For many such things are so vague, there is little direction when it comes to determining when one is unnecessarily compromising those principles, because one has been directed to by the "higher authorities".

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by bluethread]

Well I can only speak for myself and I am very sure what would represent for me, a compromise of Christian law and principle. My "direction" has come from the bible with the help of those I believe God has apppointed to help us understand it more fully during our present times. In the end though, each person must make their own decision on such matters and face the consequences of their choice; before both God and man.

A serious matter indeed.

JW

[jgh7]

[Replying to post 2 by jgh7]

how can Paul have advised fellow Christians to submit to a madman like Nero? What was he thinking? Paul's background was Jewish and they were not about to submit to Roman authorities were , they resisted to death. And the idea that the Roman governor was appointed or tolerated by God was blasphemy. The American republic is not based on submission to a traditional Christian King George either. Our separation of Church and state doctrine rejects it too. We are a secular state. Whose members are free to worship God but not under the authority of any one religious creed in Paul's idiosyncrasy.

Well I would say the teaching is more intricate than to be taken at face value. Paul himself flees from the governing authorities in Acts 14:5. Fleeing is not submission.

And as JehovahsWitness said, a Christian does not submit to authorities if it is blasphemous (ex: a Christian should not curse God because a governing authority tells them to).

Jesus' basic example makes sense at least. Render to Caesar what is Caesar's. If the ruling authorities have taxes, pay them. If the ruling authorities say in law not to where orange on Tuesdays, abide by it. Beyond simple things like this, I cannot answer confidently and I imagine it is the wisdom of fellow Christians along with the Holy Spirit that would guide a person. But in a basic sense, I think the teaching is more or less to not be an anarchist.

[William]

[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]

Last I heard, 'permitting' and 'ordaining' are much the much.

Why I think it says that in the bible is this;

♦ Is The Bible Really The Word Of GOD?

I understand the bible as a political tool...

And where I think this type of thinking can only lead....

I guess it depends on one's definition of 'civilization' and 'GOD'.