Places in Jesus' glory

[JehovahsWitness]

The Apostles James and John made the following request (through their mother)

• MATTHEW 20:21
  "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."

What exactly do you think this means? What, in your opinion, were they requesting?

Why in your opinion did Jesus imply that granting positions beyond his authority at the time rather than tell them that there was no such thing as "positions in the kingdom"?


(Please note I'm not interested in discussing how or when this passage made itself into the bible canon only, since it is there now, what the words might mean).

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

They believed Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of David.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

They believed Jesus was going to restore the kingdom of David.

This is true, but I'm curious about the second question, namely Jesus response. What is your opinion?

[steveb1]

The Apostles James and John made the following request (through their mother)

• MATTHEW 20:21
  "Grant that one of these two sons of mine may sit at your right and the other at your left in your kingdom."

What exactly do you think this means? What, in your opinion, were they requesting?

Why in your opinion did Jesus imply that granting positions beyond his authority at the time rather than tell them that there was no such thing as "positions in the kingdom"?


(Please note I'm not interested in discussing how or when this passage made itself into the bible canon only, since it is there now, what the words might mean).

Jesus' reply:

22 But Jesus answered and said, “You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, [a]and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?�

They said to Him, “We are able.�

23 So He said to them, “You will indeed drink My cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with; but to sit on My right hand and on My left is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it is prepared by My Father.�

My guess is that Jesus is pointing away from himself and toward the Father, as was his wont. He tells the disciples that they, too, will suffer a similar "Passion" as Jesus would. But he also says that Passion-emulation alone would not guarantee high places in the Kingdom.

Rather, the Father's mysterious will is what will ultimately determine placement in the Kingdom. Jesus is sometimes secretive, but why he is secretive here - rather than simply explaining what the Father's notions about what really constitutes high placement in the Kingdom - is baffling. It seems also to open the door to a Calvinist view of predestination. Yet predestination does not sit well with Jesus also saying in this text that Kingdom-entry does have something to do with undergoing a Jesus-like "Passion". I don't know the answer.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

It seems they were asking to rule with him as 2 and 3. Which is beyond him as it is predetermined.(by God)

I think secondly, Jesus, points out that they may go thru what he does, but that does not guarantee them their position. It seems , even in God's kingdom, there are rankings and positions. Some are already assigned. Maybe all are?

[Overcomer]

John and James, like most Jews, expected the Messiah to overthrow Rome and re-establish Israel as a great nation. They were asking for the top two positions in the earthly kingdom they were expecting. They had no concept of a heavenly kingdom at all.

We see that when we look at this passage in context. In Matt.19:28, Jesus has already told them that, when he is seated on his "throne of glory", they and the other disciples will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Following that, Jesus foretells his death and resurrection (Matt:20:17).

So Jesus has told them what is going to happen. They just didn't get it! In light of that, it makes it especially sad when John and James ask for the top positions of power in an earthly realm that is never going to be established.

Ultimately, Jesus teaches them a lesson in servant leadership, noting that, while the Gentiles want positions of authority and act as tyrants, their role will be different. As Jesus came to serve and not to be served, so must they serve. And as Jesus suffered, so, too, would they suffer.

Craig Keener, in The IVP Bible Background Commentary, notes that the ones on Christ's left hand side and right hand side might refer to the men crucified on either side of him. It's an interesting idea, but a bit fanciful for me.

But the point of the account is this: Discipleship is costly. It isn't about glory and power in the world's terms. Glory and power in God's terms lie in humility and servant-hood -- the opposite of what John and James were envisioning.

See here:

https://bible.org/seriespage/11-followe ... rk-1032-52

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 6 by Overcomer]

Yes, but Jesus didn't tell them they got it completely wrong, that there's no such thing as position in my kingdom, his reply implied he didn't have the authority to give them what they wanted since that would be for his Father to decide.


Why did he say such a thing?

[brianbbs67]

"because the son can only do as the Father instructs"

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

What, in your opinion, were they requesting?

The bible uses the "right/left hand" analogy to express positions of honor (birthright), authority (the Christ), disobedience (mark of the beast), power (King David) and protection (crossing of the sea/Jordan river). So, the mother of James/John was requesting that her sons would be granted the highest positions (next to the Christ) available in the Kingdom of God on this earth.

Why in your opinion did Jesus imply that granting positions beyond his authority at the time?

The granting of positions by the Christ (in his Kingdom) is not and was not beyond the Christ's authority (Matthew 20). The positions of being on the right and left of the Christ was decided before he came to be. Hence, these positions were already filled by the choice of God when the request was made by the mother of Zebedee's sons. Which, seems to imply that these positions will be filled by special (high ranking) angelic beings or O.T. humans. The Christ, being at one with his Father would not even consider a change to God's choice for these positions.

Rather than tell them that there was no such thing as "positions in the kingdom"?

The bible clearly states that there are different positions or types of authority in the Kingdom of God:

1 Corinthians 15:24-29: These verses illustrate that the Christ will be subject to his Father (God) when all things (in God's plan) are finished. They also show different positions or types of authority. God the Father (first), then the Christ.

Revelation 14:1-3: These verses shows that there will 144,000 human beings who will be changed to spiritual beings and are the next in order of authority.

Revelation 19:6-10: Shows the final group of those who will be among the authority figures in the Kingdom of God.

Revelation 1:4-6: These verses illustrate that the true followers of God and of the Christ will be "kings and priests" in the Kingdom of God.

So, the Christ was in no way, implying that there are no such thing as positions in the Kingdom of God. He was actually claiming that there are many…

[polonius]

[Replying to post 1 by JehovahsWitness]

It seems they were asking to rule with him as 2 and 3. Which is beyond him as it is predetermined.(by God)

I think secondly, Jesus, points out that they may go thru what he does, but that does not guarantee them their position. It seems , even in God's kingdom, there are rankings and positions. Some are already assigned. Maybe all are?

QUESTION: Are you saying then, that Jesus in not coequal with the Father, in other words, not divine himself?