Revelation 2:8

[Wootah]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

[shnarkle]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

There's nothing to get around in the texts. It's the answer that's wrong. The answer isn't God. The answer is Christ, the word of God. That's what the texts state.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 2 by shnarkle]

Isaiah 44:6 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord, Not Idols
6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

Here in Isaiah, the first and last is a designation for God.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 2 by shnarkle]

Isaiah 44:6 New International Version (NIV)
The Lord, Not Idols
6 “This is what the Lord says—
Israel’s King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

Here in Isaiah, the first and last is a designation for God.

The word is the means of creation, and creates everything that exists including all manifestations of God which should never be conflated with God. Again,l provided plenty of verses showing that God is incomparable which is to say transcendent. In fact, it isn't even accurate to say that the father is anything. The father is synonymous with transcendence, therefore the revealed God of the bible can only be through the word. So the burning bush, the pillar of smoke during the day, the pillar of fire at night, the eternal priest, the presence of God in the Temple, etc. are all manifestations of God, or God's manifestations. None of these manifestations are God himself. By definition, transcendence can't manifest anything.

The term "God" is just that; a term. It's a word with no referent except for those who choose to imagine what God is like. In the bible those who choose to do so are referred to as "idolaters". It is a violation of the second commandment. now one may argue that if that's the case, then aren't all of these manifestations just idols? No, they're not idols at all. They're Icons. The Icons of God, and no one can worship God objectively except through his Icon, which is Christ. No one comes to the father except through Christ. Christ points out that if you have seen the son you have seen the father because Christ is the image (Greek "iekon") of God.

Christ repeatedly identifies with the "I AM" of the old testament with his "I AM" statements in John's gospel. It is Christ, the word who comes from the father and returns to him as well which agrees with Paul's expansion of the Shema which shows the father being the origin of everything that exists. Logically, the origin of existence cannot be existence itself.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by shnarkle]

The word is the means of creation, and creates everything that exists including all manihhfestations of God which should never be conflated with God.

What do you mean, "the word"?

The John 1 "Logos"[or "logos"]?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 4 by shnarkle]

Again,l provided plenty of verses showing that God is incomparable which is to say transcendent.

Where are they?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 4 by shnarkle]

If God is incomparable how can we relate to God? How can the word (as I try to understand your position) even begin to do its job to tell me about God if God is incomparable?

[Elijah John]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.


How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

Taking a characteristic of YHVH God and applying it to Jesus in writing does not make Jesus God. All it proves is the writer of the book of Revelation considered Jesus to be God.

Paul does similar things by lifting and twisting verses from Isaiah, meant for YHVH only, and applying them Jesus. (bowing to the name of, etc.)

But writing something does not in and of itself establish the truth of what is written.

[Elijah John]

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.


How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

Taking a characteristic of YHVH God and applying it to Jesus in writing does not make Jesus God. All it proves is the writer of the book of Revelation considered Jesus to be God.

Paul does similar things by lifting and twisting verses from Isaiah, meant for YHVH only, and applying them Jesus. (bowing to the name of, etc.)

But writing something does not in and of itself establish the truth of what is written.

And I would ask our JW friends, (since they regard the writings of John and Paul so highly) doesn't this prove that John and Paul thought of Jesus as God? Sure, neither of them came right out and said "Jesus is God", but they may as well have. They did so indirectly. Though, admittedly they both provide verses which contradict this notion as well. (John 17.3, for example)

[tam]

Peace again to you,

8 “To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:

These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.

Q: Who is the First and Last?
A: God.

If God is the first and last and also died and came to life again isn't that Jesus.

How does anyone get around this scriptural interpretation?

God did not die and come to life again, so this cannot be speaking about God.

God being the First and the Last does not mean that Christ is not also the First and the Last (except with regard to His Father).

He is certainly the First and the Last (only) begotten Son. I can think of other things as well.

This verse is speaking about Christ, not about His God (and Father).



**

Taking a characteristic of YHVH God and applying it to Jesus in writing does not make Jesus God. All it proves is the writer of the book of Revelation considered Jesus to be God.

EJ (peace to you), John writes the book of revelation according to what he saw and heard while in the spirit. He did not write the book according to his own personal beliefs or theology.

That being said, and continuing with the seven letters, this is what John was told to write:

"I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have so that no one will take your crown. Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never gain will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name."


Note that Christ continues to refer to God as "my God".

Note also that there are three distinct names that Christ will write on those who overcome: His God's name, the name of city of His God, and His own new name.


Note also in Chapter one:

"To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve His God and Father..."





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy