Separation of Church and State in the US Constitution

Two hot topics for the price of one

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
McCulloch
Site Supporter
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 9:10 pm
Location: Toronto, ON, CA
Been thanked: 3 times

Separation of Church and State in the US Constitution

Post #1

Post by McCulloch »

It has been asserted by various Christians that there is no Separation of Church and State in the Constitution of the USA. The Supreme Court of the USA, who's job it is to authoritatively interpret the constitution, has ruled that there is separation of Church and State in the constitution.
At issue, I think is the interpretation of Amendment I of the Constitution which states
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Here is a document, FIRST AMENDMENT RELIGION AND EXPRESSION from the US government's Constitutional information web site which provides more detail on this issue.
Not until the Supreme Court held the religion clauses applicable to the states in the 1940s did it have much opportunity to interpret them. But it quickly gave them a broad construction. In Everson v. Board of Education, the Court, without dissent on this point, declared that the Establishment Clause forbids not only practices that ‘‘aid one religion’’ or ‘‘prefer one religion over another,’’ but also those that ‘‘aid all religions.’’
It is interesting to note that the Court had no dissent on this point.
In 1802, President Jefferson wrote a letter to a group of Baptists in Danbury, Connecticut, in which he declared that it was the purpose of the First Amendment to build ‘‘a wall of separation between Church and State.’’ In Reynolds v. United States, 18 Chief Justice Waite for the Court characterized the phrase as ‘‘almost an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the amendment.’’ In its first encounters with religion-based challenges to state programs, the Court looked to Jefferson’s metaphor for substantial guidance.
Questions for debate:
  1. Have the constitutional experts been misleading us all along and the separation of Church and State is not supported by the US constitution?
  2. Is separation of Church and State a good thing? Should modern states establish religion? Should modern religious organizations exercise political power?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

User avatar
Cephus
Prodigy
Posts: 2991
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:33 pm
Location: Redlands, CA
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Post #41

Post by Cephus »

Confused wrote:Is there actually 456 other competing creation stories? And last I checked, creationism wasn't taught in school, so no you still couldn't enjoy that benefit since it doesnt' exist, sorry. But I do believe you would qualify for awesome tax breaks.
If you went around to all the different religions, certainly you could come up with many more than 456 creation stories. Of course, nobody takes any of them seriously, they don't have a lobby to get them forced into schools, but in the interest of "fairness", which is always what the creationists talk about, we'd need to include the creation story of every single little tribe on every single little island since the beginning of time.

After all, one of them might be right!

User avatar
Goat
Site Supporter
Posts: 24999
Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
Has thanked: 25 times
Been thanked: 207 times

Post #42

Post by Goat »

Confused wrote:
Cmass wrote:Can I make the assumption that if the line between church and state were further blurred - I would have the freedom to submit my own religion into the mix and that it would be accepted as an equally valid view and that I would enjoy all the influence and benefits that came with this?
If so, then I hereby submit the The Great Sphagetti Monster as my one true God. His creation story must be taught in schools along with 456 other competing creation stories. The only way they could avoid having to indulge me this is to make this country an officially Xtian country.
And wouldn't that be nifty? Pat Robertson our Defense Secretary and Jerry Falwell as president.
Is there actually 456 other competing creation stories? And last I checked, creationism wasn't taught in school, so no you still couldn't enjoy that benefit since it doesnt' exist, sorry. But I do believe you would qualify for awesome tax breaks.
There are probably at least that many creation stories. Every american indian tribe had their very own creation myth, and that is just a small segment of the different cultures of the world.

User avatar
Confused
Site Supporter
Posts: 7308
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 5:55 am
Location: Alaska

Post #43

Post by Confused »

goat wrote:
Confused wrote:
Cmass wrote:Can I make the assumption that if the line between church and state were further blurred - I would have the freedom to submit my own religion into the mix and that it would be accepted as an equally valid view and that I would enjoy all the influence and benefits that came with this?
If so, then I hereby submit the The Great Sphagetti Monster as my one true God. His creation story must be taught in schools along with 456 other competing creation stories. The only way they could avoid having to indulge me this is to make this country an officially Xtian country.
And wouldn't that be nifty? Pat Robertson our Defense Secretary and Jerry Falwell as president.
Is there actually 456 other competing creation stories? And last I checked, creationism wasn't taught in school, so no you still couldn't enjoy that benefit since it doesnt' exist, sorry. But I do believe you would qualify for awesome tax breaks.
There are probably at least that many creation stories. Every american indian tribe had their very own creation myth, and that is just a small segment of the different cultures of the world.
Is it any wonder why I am confused? I think it is a hopeless quest I lead.
What we do for ourselves dies with us,
What we do for others and the world remains
and is immortal.

-Albert Pine
Never be bullied into silence.
Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
Accept no one persons definition of your life; define yourself.

-Harvey Fierstein

Post Reply