Why didnt Jesus like the pharisees?

[Wootah]

If the law is enough why didnt Jesus like the pharisees?

Why didnt jesus tell the young man, 'well done for following the law i'll see you in heaven'?

[JehovahsWitness]

He's also upholding the law which will not be done away with until heaven and earth pass away. In a sense to do away with the law is to go beyond the law, no?

Well I've already said what *I* mean by "go beyond the law", I don't know (and can't impose) what YOU mean by the same expression. If you equate "doing away" with the law with "going beyond the law" then there's nothing I can about that.


JW

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 50 by JehovahsWitness]

No! He didn't say "This law replaces the one in Hebrew scripture". He didn't say he was modifying the Mosaic law. He didn't send his disciples into the synagogues with a pen to cross out the words in the book of Moses and pencil in his "changes". When earlier ask which was the greatest of the Laws of Moses he quoted two. On this later occassion he explained to his disciples that he was commanding them that their love must go further than that commanded by the Law.

Exactly! He's going beyond the Mosaic law, but he's explicitly articulating the fact that he is giving them another commandment. So while one could argue that the commandment to love your neighbor as yourself could be still in effect, it clearly can't be equated with it. It clearly supersedes it. Love your neighbor as yourself requires one to love their neighbor only as well as one loves themselves, while Jesus added commandment requires one to love their neighbor with the love of Christ. Christ is the standard that exemplifies a perfect adherence to the Mosaic law. He is the manifestation of God's will which is synonymous with his law.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 52 by shnarkle]

Thats an interesting way of putting. There are parts of what you say I would certainly agree with.


Thanks for putting your view so clearly, I appreciate it.

JW

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 52 by shnarkle]

If I may, I have read some of this conversation you are having with JW and I think you might be talking past each other. There is a hierarchy in HaTorah. Yeshua refers to this when He says, (Mt. 12:11-12) “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.� One is not to use the commandment to love one's neighbor as an out. However, if keeping a command creates harm, then one is to go with not creating harm. The best solution is to put up fences ( literally in the case of the sheep), so one limits the situations when one is faced with such a choice. That said, one must always keep in mind that a fence in not a commandment and therefore, one should not get in the habit of confronting others with regard to fences.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 52 by shnarkle]

One is not to use the commandment to love one's neighbor as an out.

What do you mean by "an out"? Could you elaborate?

However, if keeping a command creates harm, then one is to go with not creating harm.

Sure, but this is beside the point. One doesn't create harm when one is "walking after the Spirit".

The best solution is to put up fences ( literally in the case of the sheep), so one limits the situations when one is faced with such a choice.

Not according to the New Testament. That didn't work, which is why a new way of administering the law is provided which allows one to keep the law not only externally, but internally as well. It is only when Christ's spirit is keeping the law within the new creature that the law can be kept.

That said, one must always keep in mind that a fence in not a commandment and therefore, one should not get in the habit of confronting others with regard to fences.

One must confront those who are speaking of fences, but believe they're talking about what necessarily remains when the fences are no longer necessary. The fences are there to point one back to the pasture, but when the livestock are kept from straying too far by their sole source of water, the fences are no longer necessary. When they think that it is the water that is no longer necessary, the livestock will necessarily look for water beyond the fence's boundary, and that is death.

The texts plainly point out that it is not the law that is done away with, but that which "was added because of transgressions"; "the curse"; the "penalty". People need to noted the distinction between the two. The way the law is administered has changed for the New Testament believer. They no longer look to a system of punishment and sacrifice to keep them observant. They rely on the Faith of Christ working in and with, and through them. The prophets point this out as well when they say that God will put a new heart into them "that they may keep my commandments". This is the explicit reason for the new heart.

[bluethread]

One is not to use the commandment to love one's neighbor as an out.

What do you mean by "an out"? Could you elaborate?

Well, one example would be to take one's children to the circus, event though it is only in town on Shabbat.

However, if keeping a command creates harm, then one is to go with not creating harm.

Sure, but this is beside the point. One doesn't create harm when one is "walking after the Spirit".

Are you saying that if one does harm, one is not "walking after the Spirit", or anything one does is acceptable as long as one is "walking after the Spirit"?

The best solution is to put up fences ( literally in the case of the sheep), so one limits the situations when one is faced with such a choice.

Not according to the New Testament. That didn't work, which is why a new way of administering the law is provided which allows one to keep the law not only externally, but internally as well. It is only when Christ's spirit is keeping the law within the new creature that the law can be kept.

What do you think Yeshua meant when He said, (Mt. 5:29-30) "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."?

That said, one must always keep in mind that a fence in not a commandment and therefore, one should not get in the habit of confronting others with regard to fences.

One must confront those who are speaking of fences, but believe they're talking about what necessarily remains when the fences are no longer necessary. The fences are there to point one back to the pasture, but when the livestock are kept from straying too far by their sole source of water, the fences are no longer necessary. When they think that it is the water that is no longer necessary, the livestock will necessarily look for water beyond the fence's boundary, and that is death.

Interesting addition to the analogy. How is it that the water keeps the sheep out of the ditch?

The texts plainly point out that it is not the law that is done away with, but that which "was added because of transgressions"; "the curse"; the "penalty". People need to noted the distinction between the two. The way the law is administered has changed for the New Testament believer. They no longer look to a system of punishment and sacrifice to keep them observant. They rely on the Faith of Christ working in and with, and through them. The prophets point this out as well when they say that God will put a new heart into them "that they may keep my commandments". This is the explicit reason for the new heart.

I think you are presuming that wasn't always the case. Moshe' himself said, (Deut. 30:14) "the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it." Yes, the reason we have the written Torah is because people transgressed without it. If you can live according to Adonai's ways without the written Torah, more power to you, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do that.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 56 by bluethread]

Are you saying that if one does harm, one is not "walking after the Spirit",

Yes.

or anything one does is acceptable as long as one is "walking after the Spirit"?

No. As long as one is walking after the Spirit, they are not fullfulling the lusts of the flesh, and can only be pleasing to God. The Spirit will not lead one to harm anyone.

The best solution is to put up fences ( literally in the case of the sheep), so one limits the situations when one is faced with such a choice.

Not according to the New Testament. That didn't work, which is why a new way of administering the law is provided which allows one to keep the law not only externally, but internally as well. It is only when Christ's spirit is keeping the law within the new creature that the law can be kept.

What do you think Yeshua meant when He said, (Mt. 5:29-30) "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."?

He meant that if you can't be born again, drastic measures will be required because the soul that sins will die.

How is it that the water keeps the sheep out of the ditch?

Here's the whole analogy. Ranchers in Australia have properties that are so vast that to fence them is prohibitivly expensive. Therefore they simply sink a well at the center of their properties which prevents their herds from straying far enough to reach the boundaries of their properties. If they were to reach the fence they would die because they can't get back to water. They already know this so they will not stray far enough to become thirsty. The well is Christ. That is what motivates one under the "new testament" model. The fence is what motivates one under the "old testament" model.

Where people go astray is in assuming that the well allows one to stray past the fence, and still be fed by the well.

The texts plainly point out that it is not the law that is done away with, but that which "was added because of transgressions"; "the curse"; the "penalty". People need to note the distinction between the two. The way the law is administered has changed for the New Testament believer. They no longer look to a system of punishment and sacrifice to keep them observant. They rely on the Faith of Christ working in and with, and through them. The prophets point this out as well when they say that God will put a new heart into them "that they may keep my commandments". This is the explicit reason for the new heart.

I think you are presuming that wasn't always the case.

No, not at all. In fact, the only difference is the perspective one has in relation to Christ. There are plenty of people in the so-called old testament that are operating under the new testament method.

Moshe' himself said, (Deut. 30:14) "the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Yep. Here's another one.

And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

This is no different than what Jesus says when he points out that he only does what he sees the father doing and only says what is given to him from the father. To bind upon one's hand is to manifest God's will in everything one does, and "as a frontlet between thine eyes" is to have God's will at the forefront of one's awareness. When he says "it shall be in thine heart" it isn't a command, but a promise. Paul points out that the covenant is a promise.

Yes, the reason we have the written Torah is because people transgressed without it.

I think the point to remember here isn't that it is written, but the fact that it existed prior to sin; it necessarily had to for one cannot transgress a law that doesn't exist. The next thing that is pertinent is where it is written. If it is written on some stone tablet that is concealed from sight and out of mind, then it will be of no use whatsoever. If it is written on your heart, then it is the promise of eternal life.

If you can live according to Adonai's ways without the written Torah, more power to you, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do that.

It must be written on one's heart so that one may keep it in their heart. The Torah that is kept in one's heart is kept in the world.

The grand deception is that it has been done away with, when it is only how it is administered that has changed. It is kept in one's heart, not by some external system. The external system informs us of God's standard, and what is right and wrong, and why we should keep it. When it is written on one's heart, then one keeps it, not because one should, or because it's the right thing to do; but because one is a child of God and it is the only thing one can do. Examples include "righteous Abel", Noah, Abraham, etc.