What does it mean,

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 7:26 am

What does it mean, when some people say that "all Scripture is God breathed?

Does it mean that the Bible was dictated by God?

Inspired by God?

Does it mean that the Bible is perfect and infallible in every detail?

If you hold the position that the Bible is "God breathed" please define the term, and support your position.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

We "approve" of slavery as practised 3000 years ago by faithful Jews under the Mosaic Law for the for the period during which that law was in force, since it was regulated by that Divine Law.

So you are speaking for the Jehovah's Witness organization? (We)

And an intrinsically evil act, (slavery) becomes something good if performed "in the name of the LORD Jehovah"?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 10 by Elijah John]

We "approve" of slavery as practised 3000 years ago by faithful Jews under the Mosaic Law for the for the period during which that law was in force, since it was regulated by that Divine Law.
So you are speaking for the Jehovah's Witness organization? (We)

No I'm speaking as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. We have a governing body that speaks for the entire organization, I'm not a member of this body. All Jehovah's Witnesses however are united in faith and all believe the bible is the word of God; and the Mosaic law (including its mandates on Slavery) is part of that nspired word.

JW

FURTHER READING Did God Condone the Slave Trade?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102001646

RELATED POSTS

Am I a Jehovah's Witness "special agent"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 181#820181

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:37 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Do you think it is a good witness for Jehovah to tie Him in any way to the institution of slavery, except to repudiate it?
Who am I to say what Jehovah wants as a witness?

It is you who call yourselves "Jehovah's Witnesses"....And you folks claim the Bible in it's entirety is a perfect revelation of God's will. So you are presuming to speak for Jehovah, even when you attempt to defend every single thing contained in the pages of the Bible as being FROM Jehovah, no matter how atrocious.

2timothy316 wrote: He makes those determinations. Apparently at that time, He found it acceptable that people tied to Him could own other people. That's all there is to it. Does this too stumble you?

I think you err in supposing that every command or action attributed to Jehovah, is actually from Jehovah.

Does it "cause me to stumble" thinking that Jehovah supposedly tolerated slavery, and considered His children made in His image to be "property"? And allowed them to be brutalized by their masters? Yes, and also to realized that Fundamentalists like Jehovah's Witnesses believe this about Jehovah, that is deeply troubling. And I am amazed that such barbarity, such atrocity done in the name of the LORD Jehovah does not cause you to stumble as well.

But maybe your indoctrination just does not permit you to be disturbed by such things.

2timothy316 wrote: Now is slavery acceptable under the Law of the Christ? The principle is clear, it exhorts humans to treat others the way that they would like to be treated. (Luke 6:31)

Does the Golden Rule apply to slaves as well? Or are they exempt from the love of God and His protection because they are only "property".

It's not just the "Law of Christ" that indicts the atrocious passage from Exodus, but the Torah too, because the Golden Rule is found there as well.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon May 14, 2018 8:47 pm

Elijah John wrote: It is you who call yourselves "Jehovah's Witnesses"....And you folks claim the Bible in it's entirety is a perfect revelation of God's will. So you are presuming to speak for Jehovah.

We don't speak FOR God, we Witnesses about Him. A Witness is someone willing to stand up and publically testify as to what they know about a situation, fact or person. We represent JEHOVAH God, speaking out about what we know about his character and purpose.

And we don't "presume" to do this, we have been CHOSEN as ordained ministers by him to Witnesses about Him. A slave doesn't presume to speak for his master, he obeys when sent . We are unworthy for such a grand privilege but cherish the honor to represent the Most High as we follow his Son Jesus Christ, our Leader.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

ISAIAH 43:10

"You are my witnesses" declares Jehovah, Yes, my servant whom I have chosen

What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light. What you hear in a whisper, proclaim on the housetops. - JESUS CHRIST

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 14, 2018 9:01 pm

[Replying to post 24 by JehovahsWitness]

What you "know" or what you believe?

What you have actually witnessed? Did you witness the LORD God Jehovah giving the command that it was OK to keep and beat slaves half to death, because they are "property"?

Or perhaps it was only "Moses", misusing his position and presuming to attribute something to Jehovah that Jehovah never said, in order to bolster his authority.

Is that a good witness?

marco · Post by **marco** » Tue May 15, 2018 5:13 am

2timothy316 wrote:
If one can accept these and examine all things as 1 Corinthians 2:15 says, then that person will start to understand more about Jehovah ......

If one can't accept these things, then they should just keep going their own way like the majority of people. The ways of the God of the Bible will always seem foolish to him. (1 Cor 2:14) A person that seeks to understand God's ways loves Jehovah their God with their whole heart, whole mind and whole soul.

Moderator Comment

Hello 2timothy316; we are getting close to crossing the Jordan between debate and preaching here. Advice may be well intentioned but let us remember there are many opinions here.

Please review the Rules.

______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Tue May 15, 2018 6:53 am

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

The Bible says that it exposes one's heart. The Bible also says that faith is based on evidence of things unseen. That a person must examine themselves and keep examining themselves. These things make this a very personal topic and really not for this board and apparently my explanations are preachy. So I guess you'll have to continue your journey using only your own opinions. Or feel free to PM me and we can continue.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue May 15, 2018 2:11 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]

Ordained or allowed, fair enough. Do you see any difference with what the Bible authors may have tolerated, and what God tolerated? Why do you equate the two, in each in every verse?
There must have been a difference. The Law didn't allow for the killing of slaves or maiming of slaves. Apparently, this was a problem before.

The Law did allow for the keeping and beating of slaves, half-to-death. And that is troublesome, don't you think? According to the Law of Moses, it was OK to beat the crap out of your "property" the slave, as long as he lingered for a day or two, and didn't die right away from his injuries.

Do you think people made in God's image should be considered "property"? . By attempting to uphold the notion of the perfection of the Bible, the Fundamentalist ascribes wickedess to the Benevolent Creator of the Universe. How in the world does that honor Jehovah?

2timothy316 wrote: Also, there was a provision that person could buy themselves back. Apparently, people back then would keep a person longer than Jehovah thought acceptable.

A pathetic attempt to whitewash a wicked institution.

2timothy316 wrote: So here's some questions for you. If you are really having such a hard time with slavery,

And you are not? Is this the effect of JW indocrtination, that it makes one insensitive to human suffering? Slaves, suffered, by the deprivation of their freedom, even if they were not beaten half to death.

2timothy316 wrote: then what do you think about what happens today or what has happened for the past 3000 years? Look at all the bad things that people do. Why does Jehovah allow all the horrible things happening today to continue? Because He allows them to happen, are all of these things ordained? If you're having a hard time with slavery back then, is it a mind blower for you to see what God allows now?

God does not codify the wicked things you allude to with approval by Law. In fact, it seems He would consider those things violations of the Ten Commandments. Murder, theft, adultery etc.

That is different from someone ("Moses") attempting to attribute his own barbaric bias to the orders of the Almighty, by weight of law.

Do you think the keeping and the beating of slaves, treating them as "property" is sin? Or not.

People treat their cars better than "Moses" called for in his law.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Tue May 15, 2018 2:21 pm

Elijah John wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: then what do you think about what happens today or what has happened for the past 3000 years? Look at all the bad things that people do. Why does Jehovah allow all the horrible things happening today to continue? Because He allows them to happen, are all of these things ordained? If you're having a hard time with slavery back then, is it a mind blower for you to see what God allows now?
God does not codify the wicked things you alluded to by Law. In fact, it seems He would considers the violations of the Ten Commandments.

Yet how do you reconcile that God didn't step in and stop slavery even if you think He didn't speak that law? Can Jehovah not have His say? There are hundreds of laws in the Law code. Very specific laws. Yet Jehovah the most powerful couldn't get the sentence 'no one can own a slave' in there? Jehovah could only get 10 commandments in there? That mere men can silence Jehovah? Explain please why He didn't stop slavery and beatings if it was against the 10 Commandments or make a law against it.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Tue May 15, 2018 4:31 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: then what do you think about what happens today or what has happened for the past 3000 years? Look at all the bad things that people do. Why does Jehovah allow all the horrible things happening today to continue? Because He allows them to happen, are all of these things ordained? If you're having a hard time with slavery back then, is it a mind blower for you to see what God allows now?
God does not codify the wicked things you alluded to by Law. In fact, it seems He would considers the violations of the Ten Commandments.
Yet how do you reconcile that God didn't step in and stop slavery even if you think He didn't speak that law? Can Jehovah not have His say? There are hundreds of laws in the Law code. Very specific laws. Yet Jehovah the most powerful couldn't get the sentence 'no one can own a slave' in there? Jehovah could only get 10 commandments in there? That mere men can silence Jehovah? Explain please why He didn't stop slavery and beatings if it was against the 10 Commandments or make a law against it.

God respects free will, even enough to allow "Moses" to infect the Law of God with his barbaric bias. Notice that his spiritual heirs, Jews and a lot of Christians and Muslims, ignore that atrocoius passage, (not knowing how to account for it) . They certainly do not emphasize it, even JWs do not include the slave beating passage in their propagada. It is an embarrasment to all who treasure the Bible.

Seems God corrects through a process of Spiritual evolution. The fact the the Faithful do not promote, nor do they practice slavery is, in effect, a repudiation of that wicked institution.

Have you noticed there is a progression in Scriptue? From the molaltry and henotheism of Moses, to the pure Monotheism of Isaiah. And from blood sacrifice of Moses and Aaron, to more enlightened means of forgiveness, such as found in the Prophets, like Micah, (6.6-8), Jesus (God as merciful Father) and John the Baptist, who preformed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins".

To suggest that revelation, and correction ends with the last page of the book of "Revelation" is to calcify and fossilize the movement of God in history, and to attempt to place limits upon Him.

Again, the Bible did not drop intact from Heaven...it was compiled by fallible human beings, and the limits of the Canon is somewhat arbitrary.

Else, where is it decreed, by God that revelation ends with Revelation?